77 Satoh Beaver S370D wont start, low compression

[thepumpguysc]

CONGRATS!!!!
350 is a GOOD #..
You REALLY NEED THE BOOK to tell you the "break-in" procedure..
DO NOT let it IDLE for more than 5-10 minutes.. keep it OFF IDLE.. adjust the idle screw for now.. so when it comes down, it doesn't go to idle.
To break it in, you run it at 1800 for an extended period..30-45-1hr.. OR go work the tractor..
Put a mower or disk on it & get to work.. I've seen people actually push a tree, for an hour..
Is there ANY labels or tags left on the engine or valve cover?? to tell you low & hi rpm..
Keep on eye on the temp & oil during this process.!!!!

You SHOULD ALWAYS MARK TDC when you find it.. either on the flywheel or front balancer..
I like to make a "timing pointer".. for future usage.. if the engine doesn't have one..
I take a short piece of coat hanger, & make a small loop in it & run say, a water pump bolt or timing cover bolt thru it w/ a washer & point it over the front hub.. near the belts..
Then mark the front hub for TDC..
"Way to go" on the final start-up.. & thanks for taking us along on your journey..
Happy Tractoring..

 

[thepumpguysc]

The compression matched because that problem is on an EXHAUST valve.. its not opening to let the compr. OUT.
Had it been on an INTAKE valve, it would have been a diff. story..
Air WAS ALLOWED IN.. for compression, but not OUT..
You can tell a lot by just the threads showing.. if the measurement is .014" on BOTH cylinders, the threads should be about the same on the adj. screws...

 

[HomesteadOC]

I ran it at a higher rpm for 20m or so then when it warmed up backed it down to idle and moved it all around the place. I wasnt able to work it just yet because I havent put the drive shaft back on. I did have it around mid throttle while I ran the hydraulics up and down for 15m or so. I was experimenting where throttle needed to be to operate the hydraulic pump and not bog down. When I found it I let it sit there while I washed up and ate dinner. I thought I had an alternator problem because my voltage got to 11.04v during running, but it turned out to be the ground lug wasnt tightened on the battery. After work today I finish putting it back together and start playing with it at a higher rpm for a while. I really wanted to get a pic of the front loader pushing up the front end, but it seems the cylinders are not up to the task. Perhaps a few rebuilds are in my future. The good news, is that theres no leaks.

Whats the proper torque for the valve cover? Did I mess anything up by not running it at 1800rpm for an extended period of time? Im guessing my compression numbers are going to jump up now that the valves are correct, hopefully.

 

[Ilikeurtractor]

Congratulations on the repair! You were scaring me when you were getting black smoke and no running after a re-ring. I wouldn't worry too much about the break-in procedure. I'm sure it makes some difference, but probably not between running or not. I've read running under load is better for a diesel, but then some engines say in the manual not to load it up during break in so I have evidence for both scenarios. You should see your compression come up slightly after running for a while and the rings seat in. I would guess close to 400 psig or maybe even more after 20-30 hours of runtime but maybe you can check and post your results because I'm not really sure. My experience has been valve covers and oil pans are difficult to get sealed. They should seal with just the bolts being snug. My G154 leaks at the oil pan. It is the original gasket and was stuck to the oil pan side with no tearing on the block side. I put silicone on the block side and am surprised it is leaking so it will have to come apart again and I'll probably use a different type of sealant, or maybe I didn't get good coverage. As I stated earlier, silicone is not the ideal sealant for typical fuels and oils but usually better than nothing.

 

[HomesteadOC]

Ill check more on the oil pan when I get home, I didnt focus on that after install so I might not have noticed leaks. Its much easier to torque them down before I get the drive shaft on anyway. Theres one bolt closest to the middle of the engine that I cant get torqued properly without removing the front axle so its just by feel with a box end. I need to install my hour meter, the T from the injectors to the tank, and I need to come up with a strap for the battery. The exhaust is only held on by the top nuts on the studs, the bottom has bolts that are too long to hold it, and I want to paint the bolt heads and some touch up on the block. Ive got my power washer in good working order, so thatll be done once I get all the leaks slowed down or stopped. I put in a flush product in the coolant system, there is a lot of rust in there. Im also working with the same oil filter, and I did a mix of half ATF and half rotella oil. Im going to run that for a while and drain all the fluids again and then change the oil filter, clean the transaxle screen and magnetic plugs and we should be in business. I also need some front ag tires to match the back and a few bolts here and there that Ive noticed were missing.

 

[HomesteadOC]

No leaks in the oil pan or the valve cover, but I got a few hydraulic leaks and the engine has a little knock to it. I think I did the valve adjustment wrong possibly. I adjusted cylinder #1 intake and exhaust valves at TDC for piston #1, and the same for piston #2. It starts easy off of 1 glowplug warming cycle when cold, but there seems to be more smoke that what I think there should. My friend was saying the valves might need to be adjusted differently than what I did, but Im not sure of the process and I still cant find my stupid manual. Could someone please, please, please post the valve adjustment procedure from their manual?

 

[Kernopelli]

I wouldn't get too worried that something is wrong just yet. I have only owned two 2 cylinder tractors but both were loud and had that trademark 2 cylinder clanging, knocking sound. To me, the 3 and 4 cylinder engines are much quieter and smoother. As far as procedure, I attached a (well used) scan of my I&T manual, hopefully it is legible. The "procedure" will basically be the same for your 2 cylinder but the clearances may be different.

 

[HomesteadOC]

Thanks, that helps, but I have a KE70 motor so Im still not 100% sure. I adjusted the valves in this way so that makes me feel better. Im just a little worried about the knocking sound I hear and the excess smoke. Maybe thats just the way these engines sound?
I did notice that the K3s are adjusted to 0.01” clearance, maybe if I tighten mine up to that it will run quieter? Anyone ever try that?

 

[thepumpguysc]

While its running [knocking] loosen a line AT the injector & retighten, 1 at a time..
IF the knocking goes away on THAT cylinder.. you can consentrate your efforts there..

 

[HomesteadOC]

While its running [knocking] loosen a line AT the injector & retighten, 1 at a time..
IF the knocking goes away on THAT cylinder.. you can consentrate your efforts there..

Thats a good tip. Did you watch the video and listen to the engine? Does it sound normal or is that a bad knock?

 

[Ilikeurtractor]

It does sound louder/different (deeper?) to me for some reason but that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it. It might just be the missing air filter. My G154 sounds like it has a ticking noise. I adjusted the valves but it didn't make any difference. I can't really see any smoke in the video but it depends heavily on what is in the background. Sometimes you can't see any smoke in the right lighting, usually the sunnier the less noticeable. If you want to see some smoke go out at night, start it up, and turn the headlights on. The exhaust blows right in front of the headlights with the muffler in that configuration and if you can't see any smoke you would have a great running engine in my opinion. All of my tractors have what generally appears to be some white (maybe with a hint of blue) smoke. Some of it is water vapor along with some unburned hydrocarbons I would guess. When the engines are run hot the smoke tends to clear at least some (water vapor doesn't condense and usually you get more complete combustion.) Unfortunately most of these engines do not come with thermostats so they tend to run cooler (~160F) than ideal which I would say would be around 200 degrees F. It's hard to keep them hot also unless you're doing tilling, snow throwing, or some other activity which is drawing most of the engine's power which usually requires some PTO driven equipment. Just driving around, even pulling a trailer doesn't normally put the engine in a hot condition. An engine that runs cooler is more susceptible to sticking rings and "wet stacking" although I've never noticed wet stacking yet. One of my tractors had stuck rings and I just tore apart a 1-cylinder Hatz diesel that had one of the rings stuck so tight on the piston I barely got it out of the groove even after breaking it into pieces. You can retrofit a thermostat on these which is helpful.

 

[HomesteadOC]

It does sound louder/different (deeper?) to me for some reason but that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it. It might just be the missing air filter. My G154 sounds like it has a ticking noise. I adjusted the valves but it didn't make any difference. I can't really see any smoke in the video but it depends heavily on what is in the background. Sometimes you can't see any smoke in the right lighting, usually the sunnier the less noticeable. If you want to see some smoke go out at night, start it up, and turn the headlights on. The exhaust blows right in front of the headlights with the muffler in that configuration and if you can't see any smoke you would have a great running engine in my opinion. All of my tractors have what generally appears to be some white (maybe with a hint of blue) smoke. Some of it is water vapor along with some unburned hydrocarbons I would guess. When the engines are run hot the smoke tends to clear at least some (water vapor doesn't condense and usually you get more complete combustion.) Unfortunately most of these engines do not come with thermostats so they tend to run cooler (~160F) than ideal which I would say would be around 200 degrees F. It's hard to keep them hot also unless you're doing tilling, snow throwing, or some other activity which is drawing most of the engine's power which usually requires some PTO driven equipment. Just driving around, even pulling a trailer doesn't normally put the engine in a hot condition. An engine that runs cooler is more susceptible to sticking rings and "wet stacking" although I've never noticed wet stacking yet. One of my tractors had stuck rings and I just tore apart a 1-cylinder Hatz diesel that had one of the rings stuck so tight on the piston I barely got it out of the groove even after breaking it into pieces. You can retrofit a thermostat on these which is helpful.

It sounds quieter with the filter on, but still has the knock/tick to it. Most people say it just sounds like a diesel, one guy says it doesnt sound good, and hes the most mechanically knowledgeable out of those polled. I like the idea of a thermostat retrofit, I did notice that the smoke decreased after I started ramming and lifting my cactus patch and knocking over trees, but when I had to throttle up a big puff of smoke came with it. Does your turbo iseki smoke less than the others? Ive thought about welding a stack on the beaver to get those pesky hydrocarbons out of my face and away from the front loader boom. My exhaust blows right on the hydraulic lines and thats probably not good, so I keep the boom above the smoke trajectory. If you have a manual handy can you tell me if my valve adjustment procedure was correct?
Cylinder 1 TDC adjust cold for 1 intake and exhaust at 0.014
Cylinder 2 TDC adjust cold for 2 intake and exhaust at 0.014
I used a balloon on a compression tester nipple to see where it stopped compressing and started sucked in the balloon, then wobbled back and forth til I found the exact top.

 

[thepumpguysc]

You don't have the marks/notches on the front hub to tell you TDC??

 

[Ilikeurtractor]

On setting the valve clearance just rotate the engine clockwise (looking at the front of the engine) until you see the intake valve close for the particular cylinder you're adjusting and then continue to rotate the crankshaft another 90 to 180 degrees in the clockwise direction and then set the clearance. The balloon trick is a good idea to get you absolutely at TDC but it is unnecessary to be there to get acceptable adjustment. The main thing is to have the lifter resting on the minor diameter of the cam lobe.

Smoke is a great indicator of what is going on with the engine. Obviously it is best to not see any at all but that is difficult to achieve in general. Black smoke is difficult to eliminate even with a turbo. Only in a narrow band of high sustained load does the turbo keep the black smoke at bay in my particular case. On heavy acceleration you almost always get black smoke. Keep in mind these engines are relatively crude by today's standards. The combination of low injection pressure, late timing, flywheel weight, cooler operating temp, and potentially lower compression all are contributing factors to the various colors of smoke. One of the best methods to deal with it is exactly what you said - install a vertical stack to keep it as far as practical from your breathing zone. I plan on converting all my horizontal exhaust engines to vertical when time and priorities allow.

In my experience, the 3-cylinder Mitsubishi (K3) diesels seem to have a much more distinct "tick" to them. Probably because they are somewhat quieter in general and it's easier to hear the ticking. I'm not sure where the noise is originating but I would guess it is in the valve train.

 

[HomesteadOC]

You don't have the marks/notches on the front hub to tell you TDC??

I couldnt see any marks on the hub, it was dirty, but I wiped around where I thought it should be and still nothing.

Seems like Ive adjusted the valves correctly, Ill get another video of it running with everything back together so you guys can tell me if it sounds ok. Im currently looking into an add on thermostat, hopefully I have enough clearance to add it in the hose.

Still need to install the hour meter, fuel injector T, powerwash, and touch up paint.

One thing that bothers me is the 3PH lever gets bumped and lets down the 3PH while im driving. Maybe theres a leak and it comes down on its own? Either way Im constantly lifting it up and one main thing I want this tractor to do is carry ibc totes on the back with a little forklift 3PH thingy and thats not going to work too well with the lift arms dropping down constantly.

 

[Ilikeurtractor]

I'd say put it back together and run it. If something is terribly wrong it will show up and probably already would have. Otherwise it's just a matter of living with the imperfections like everything else. If I could give you a tour of my equipment I can point out something wrong with everything I have, even after repairs - lol. A lot of brand new stuff has problems. Sometimes I wonder if some items are even tested as they seem like they must go straight from the drawing board to a store shelf.

Your 3-pt piston probably needs new O-rings. I posted about how it is on the Iseki TX tractors over in that forum fairly recently. I'd suspect the Satoh is very similar. It's an easy job to do, at least on the Iseki. Just need to find out what O-rings are used. Pick up your 3-pt and let it sit over night. It should not fall at all when it's in good condition under its own weight.

 

[HomesteadOC]

Its already back together since saturday. Ill see if I can find your o-ring post, I parked it with the hitch up, well see what it looks like when I get home today.

 

[Ilikeurtractor]

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/iseki/392056-3-point-bleeding-leaking-down.html

 

[HomesteadOC]

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/iseki/392056-3-point-bleeding-leaking-down.html

3PH stays up over night, it seems like my legs pushhes it down while Im riding. Ill have to pay more attention to it from now on.

 

[HomesteadOC]

I powerwashed the tractor today and uncovered some more zerk fittings on the boom and bucket, I greased those, but 2 were misding so Ill have to get those replaced. My powerwasher sucks so Im going to have to get in there with a scrub brush.

Heres a long long video of my piston and ring escapades.