8N doesn't start

[beenthere]

Everyone is getting a good lesson in the older Fords, which were and are a classic.

Good advice as I see it.

But would have done the distributor/wires/plugs/points/condenser/coil check first (or soon after the first experience with the ether not working ).
The 6 volts always seem to eat points and condensers.

Hope you have some good compression. All that cranking as mentioned makes me think it is cranking way too easy (or else the battery would'nt hold up long).

Only need three things. Fuel, spark, compression. But any one missing will mean "no start".

 

[Soundguy]

It's been my experience that 6v is easy on points.. and 12v conversions is where you hit problems with people not making sure primary resistance is correct.

as far as the condensor is concearned.. considering dielectric insulation is probably near 100 to 200v.. 6v or 12v don't matter much.

soundguy

 

[GPintheMitten]

Your suggestions on identifying the tractor are very good. As well as the specifics about the 2 distributors.

But I'm not sure why you are quoting me and saying how I'm making it harder. Why don't you just simplify it by telling him what he needs to know and skip the part about how much more you know than me.

Are you saying he shouldn't get the manual and arm himself with good information?

Knowing what tractor you have is just the start and quite the easiest thing to do... as you have proven. The real benefit of what I recommended is to have the instructions on how to actually do the tune up and trouble shoot the fuel delivery system.

I don't think I'm making his job harder, I'm making it easier by advising him to get one of the most important parts (the manual) for someone who doesn't know the machine and is working on this machine for the first time.

No one told him until I did that there are different distributors and you probably need to or at least should get into the distributor part of the ignition system to get it tuned and running. Obviously he is reluctant to get involved with the distributor because he lacks the knowledge and confidence. And one of his motivating factors is to have a successful father and son fix it project while they help the neighbor.

I stand by my first recommendation. Glad you were able to make it easier though.

You are making this too hard. Ford N series used 2 distribuitors stock.. a side mount.. and a front mount. front mount was the same for the 9n, 2n, and early 8n.
parts for the frontmount fit all the front mounts. parts for the side mount actually fit all the 4 cyl gassers up to 64.




Not even that hard... 3spd tranny = 9n/2n 4spd tranny = 8n

big rear axle nut = 8n.. smooth or rivited rear axle hub = 9n/2n

still.. the engine will have a sn on the side, above the starter, below the head that will tell you what the engine went to. All N engines swap.. so then you date the codes on the chassie to see if your engine matches your chassie.. general thoughts are if the casting codes and engine number all meet up within about 3 months or so.. you got a machine with no major swapped components.

soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

how I'm making it harder. Why don't you just simplify it by telling him what he needs to know

saying there are multiple different designs and different ignition parts among the 3 units in the N series.. when all it really boils down to two of them.. EI.. any front mount uses common components. A 2n distribuitor will fit on a 9n, will fit on an early 8n.. etc. no different parts... And PS.. I did tell him how to ID it.

Are you saying he shouldn't get the manual and arm himself with good information?

Not sure where you read that.. it wasn't in my message. I think everybody should have the manual that goes with their machine... and i state so often.

and skip the part about how much more you know than me.

*Really* not sure where you read that one either. for sure wasn't in my message. You getting my reply mixed up with somebody else's???

soundguy

 

[GPintheMitten]

saying there are multiple different designs and different ignition parts among the 3 units in the N series.. when all it really boils down to two of them.. EI.. any front mount uses common components. A 2n distribuitor will fit on a 9n, will fit on an early 8n.. etc. no different parts... And PS.. I did tell him how to ID it.

soundguy

Fine. Good thing we are both trying to help him. I'm glad you're here to point out when I make it too hard. Again, the simple part is differentiating between the two distributor systems. I was just letting him know there are differences and the manual can help identify which he has, but quite beyond making that determination is using it to get the job done. The job by the way is not determining which distributor he has but getting the tractor back running.

 

[Soundguy]

Here's an important tidbit. depending on which manual set he finds.. some o fthe 'previous' copies have a misprint in them as to pointsgap.

front mount gap at .015 and side mount gap at .025

plugs on either gap at .025

soundguy

 

[Egon]

Lisle 19380 Spark Indicator

One of these will tell you if the sparking thing is sparking!

And if'n the sparking thing ain't sparking look at the carburetor a little more.

 

[GPintheMitten]

Lisle 19380 Spark Indicator

One of these will tell you if the sparking thing is sparking!

And if'n the sparking thing ain't sparking look at the carburetor a little more.

That looks like a handy inexpensive tool to have.

 

[Egon]

I have one in my tool box but haven't used it years. Not since the newer electronic ignition systems are being used.

 

[CraigM]

Gentlemen, please, no pissing contests on my account. One of the things that is most amazing about this forum is how friendly and willing everyone is to help and discuss things. You are all far more knowledgeable than me when it comes to the 8N and anything you tell me is one more thing than I knew before.

GP, you are very perceptive. Yes, I am reluctant to go too far for lack of experince and documentation and therefore confidence, but mostly because it was working last year and it wouldn't seem to be all that necessary.

I agree that the 'right' way to go about this would be to do the whole ignition system. I'd buy the manual and do it in a heartbeat if it were my tractor. I may still do it, but I know by painful experince how simple things snowball into messes. What appeared to be a simple blocked fuel system has grown to encompass a weak ignition system, plug wires that will spark a plug out of the cylinder, but not in the cylinder. And now, just for good measure, he pulled the rest of the plugs in anticipation of replacing them and found that they all have boogered up threads and the threads in the head are tight too. Some previous owner mustn't have cleaned out the depression the plugs sit in and dragged dirt down into the threads. One plug had the gasket rusted on about 2 threads below the shoulder, so it was never really seated. We are now taking the hood off so we can see how bad things are and wondering if we will have to chase the threads. Does anyone know how to do that without removing the head to keep the chips out of the cylinder?

With the hood out of the way, it may be easier to do the rest of the ignition system. I looked at it a little today. The cap appears to be square with 2 wires coming out of each side. It's on the front of the engine, very inconveniently located between engine and radiator and partially blocked from the side by the generator. It looks ok physically, but I know that doesn't mean much sometimes. I wasn't looking too long either, it's just too cold here to hang out long in an unheated shop.

By Soundguy's criteria, it's definately an 8N...Large nut on the rear wheel. We never did find any data plates. I'll look again above the starter, but I'm pretty sure that there was no tag there, although it did look like there was a place for one.

 

[Soundguy]

No data plate or tag.. it's a sn weakly hand stamped into the block.

Before i ran a thread chase downt he spark plug holes I'd simply try to hand thread in a new plug.. if it ain't great, then I'd consider the chase.. but keep in mind.. you actually don't want to remove metal. grease up the ID threads and grease the tap.. less is more when chasing spark plug threads..


soundguy

 

[GPintheMitten]

Well, your neighbor is lucky to have you guys to help him.

You have the hood off? That will make it a lot easier. The distributor is not difficult. It has been about 10 years so I'm going by memory. But you remove the coil (the big squarish looking cube) and then two nuts on either side, and then you replace the condensor and points. Gap the points according the specs Soundguy gave you. Look the cap and rotor over. Probably needs a new rotor. The rotor is simple it only goes in one way. These parts are not expensive.

Maybe Soundguy or someone can explain (and possibly have pictures for) positioning the tang on the distributor while setting the timing mechanically and at what position it should be when setting the gap. It is easiest to understand with the pictures in the manual.

I hope your neighbor is in a position to pay for the parts and manual. He's getting a great deal from you helping him here and it will pay off in having a good running tractor.

 

[tommu56]

Craig look on this thread http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/massey-ferguson-owning-operating/156177-20-electrical-short.htmlon post 10 the schematics should help you

Tom

 

[Soundguy]

Here's where the manual will be of benefit.. IE.. static timing a front mount. requires some measurement and a straight edge. no real easy way to explain it in text, vs looking at the pic in the manual. however.. a simple point replacement doesn't mean you can't slap it back in without dinking with the timing. if it was close before.. it should be close now.. the timing screw adjustment on a front mount really isn't very much.

.015 witht he rubbing block on the high part of the lobe.. add some grease tot he leading edge of the rubbing block to prevent block and cam wear.. there is a specific grease for this.. though a lil lithium grease will do in a pinch.. int he old days they gave you a capsule of grease for this int he points package.. but I havn't seen it in years. Synthetic rifle grease inthe lil grease cups you used to be able to get at milsurp stores also will work well.

Ont he front mount.. it is as gp said, remove the wire tot he coil, pop the bail, set coil off, snap 4 nipple crab cap off and then run 2 bolts out to remov ethe distrib.. when you repalce it, spin the rotor with your finger as you hand seat the distrib back tot he engine.. the unit is offset tang driven by the cam.. you can't really get it back in wrong unless it is wore slap oout AND you use a hammer... spin it till you feel it drop in.. then take the bolts down... sometimes the primary contact ont he bottom of the coil.. the lil pig tial one.. gets bent.. gently stretch it so it sets int he special cup shaped screw for the points.

soundguy

Well, your neighbor is lucky to have you guys to help him.

You have the hood off? That will make it a lot easier. The distributor is not difficult. It has been about 10 years so I'm going by memory. But you remove the coil (the big squarish looking cube) and then two nuts on either side, and then you replace the condensor and points. Gap the points according the specs Soundguy gave you. Look the cap and rotor over. Probably needs a new rotor. The rotor is simple it only goes in one way. These parts are not expensive.

Maybe Soundguy or someone can explain (and possibly have pictures for) positioning the tang on the distributor while setting the timing mechanically and at what position it should be when setting the gap. It is easiest to understand with the pictures in the manual.

I hope your neighbor is in a position to pay for the parts and manual. He's getting a great deal from you helping him here and it will pay off in having a good running tractor.

 

[CraigM]

Soundguy, does the grease keep the chips out of the cylinder, or just lubricate so that the tap doesn't cut too much? I did find the model and S/N. Knowing where to look helped as the characters are just about completely painted into invisibility. I could make out 8N, but nothing more. Could barely tell that there were other numbers there.

GP, don't have the hood off just yet. Junior unbolted it all, but we still have to remove the 3 switches that are sort of painted on to the right side of the hood. Owner says that they are not original, but they are still there 'holding' the hood. Once it's off and we have the plug situation under control, we'll consider the distributor. From what you and Soundguy say, it doesn't sound all that bad..famous last words. It's all going to have to wait until it warms up, which sounds like it may be a week. We didn't even make it to 10 degrees today.

Tom, Thanks for the schematics. That will help when we start messing with those extra switches. Owner says that they don't do anything, but I can see wires going to them. Maybe we can figure out what they do and clean it all up and get his lights to work again.

 

[GPintheMitten]

Ok, sounds like your feeling better about the whole project as well.

It's brutal cold here too. 4 degrees F right now. I think the high today was 7.
Too cold for that kind of work even in a garage.

Although I did change my starter on my 2N about 15 years ago in a snow storm about halfway down a 1200 foot driveway.

Stay warm if you can.

 

[Soundguy]

yes.. keeps chips to a minimum.. besides.. if only chasing.. hopefully not many chips.. that's why i said to run a good plug in there first.. may just be damaged threads on an old plug ( keep fingers crossed ).

soundguy

Soundguy, does the grease keep the chips out of the cylinder, or just lubricate so that the tap doesn't cut too much? I did find the model and S/N. Knowing where to look helped as the characters are just about completely painted into invisibility. I could make out 8N, but nothing more. Could barely tell that there were other numbers there.

 

[DJ54]

Not that it's better than a tap, but years ago one of the old fellows in our club showed me to take a used plug, knock the porcelin, and tip out of it. Take a hacksaw, and make two cuts in an X across the bottom, up through the threads making your own tap. Clean it up well to get any cuttings from it. Just watch not to cut the starting part of the thread. Or get cross threaded, getting started.

He was a mechanic that worked on pumping engines in the oil patch.., and worked with what he had...

I've done this more than several times to clean plug threads.., and works well..!!

 

[Soundguy]

It's a pretty common trick to make 'cheap' thread chases using a hard bolt of the correct size with a relief groove cut in it to catch the chips. I think I'd go with something harder than the oem spark plugs though.. the idea is you want to reform the threads in the head without galling moreso than cut them. ..at least not cut more than you have to anyway.. In some cases I've seen people crank down a set of antifoul adapters using some loctight sleave retainer on them, thus making new threads for a plug... In practise, with a soft cast or aluminum head.. just about anything should work fine.. even the old spark plug idea.. just start with one with good threads.. etc.

soundguy

 

[Eagleview]

It is possible to have good spark but not at the correct time , the timing may have slipped . The valve timing could also be out . I am not familiar with this engine but it is possible for gears to slip on the cam , chains to jump and tangs to shear off . I would take off the tappet cover and make sure number 1 cyl rockers are loose and number 4 cyl rockers are on the rock when the crank pointer says TDC . Then check the dissy as to where the rotor is pointing , this will confirm valve and ignition timing is correct as at TDC compression stroke number 1 .