A lot of water

   / A lot of water #11  
coachgrd, seems like you're getting a lot of good advice about how to set up the pumps so they'll work reliably. Once things dry out, I wonder if you have any way to divert water before it reaches your house. We had a similar problem here (although we haven't had to pump).

Last summer, we had a contractor dig a small drainage in the field above the house and install a couple culverts to divert water away. We were lucky to have the space to do so without putting anything else in jeoproday. With all the precip we've just gotten, there's barely a dribble in the basement. Good luck to you!
 
   / A lot of water #12  
Fred,

Before I wired my basement, I thought the same thing. I guess since my outlets for the pumps are 4 feet high on the wall, they prefer the standard variety. Perhaps Inspector507 can offer us some insight on this one.
 
   / A lot of water #13  
I was just thinking that the reason he may have put GFI outlets on that wall (one for my washer, too) is that they are pretty much right behind and above my slop sink. Maybe the proximity to the sink had something to do with it.
 
   / A lot of water #14  
Here's my take on sump pumps and GFI outlets. Keep in mind it is only MY opinion. I do NOT want a GFI device to keep my sump pump from working. So what it has a leakage to the case of the pump. I'm not putting my hands down in the pit with the pump plugged in anyway.
The NEC® does not require them to be on a GFCI if it is a single opening outlet designated for the sump pump. Same for the washer. If you install a regular duplex outlet for either one of them, then yes a GFCI is required. Of course that would violate our local code so......
 
   / A lot of water #15  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Made sense to me only because I thought water and electricity always called for a GFCI outlet or circuit breaker.)</font>

A circuit breaker and a GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter) are 2 different devices. Some circuit breakers have a GFCI built into them but they are still separate devices and perform 2 different functions.

A circuit breaker is there to protect the wiring from a short circuit, like when you accidentally drive a nail through 2 wires and they are shorted together (Am I the only one who has ever done that?). A thermal/magnetic device in the circuit breaker will cause the breaker to trip at a preset amount of current draw (i.e.: 20 Amperes). A circuit breaker will NOT trip at less than the preset amperage and a human being will be dead long before that amperage draw is exceeded. A circuit breaker is intended to prevent fires in case of an electrical short. It's secondary purpose is to protect equipment from being damaged by the short circuit.

About 1970 GFCI's were invented to protect people from electrocution. A GFCI constantly monitors the amount of current on each leg of a circuit (hot wire and neutral wire) to insure that it is equal at all times. If the current draw on the 2 wires becomes unbalanced the GFCI will trip. The trip point for the difference in current is about 5 milliamps.

If a human grabs a hot wire a portion of the electricity will pass through the body to a source of "ground", such as a metal water pipe. Once that amount of current exceeds about 50 to 100 milliamps(?) it can cause muscle spasm. If the current is going through a critical muscle such as the heart the heart will stop, thus "electrocuting" him.

The National Electrical Code started mandating GFCI's on specific circuits in the early 1970's, starting (if memory serves me) with outdoor outlets (if memory failed me it started with bathrooms).

As the NEC was updated every 4 years they added more areas that had to be protected by GFCI's based on the areas where electrocution was most likely to happen.

Normally, a house is "Grandfathered", meaning the house must only meet the NEC that was in effect at the time the house was built but since bathroom sinks were where most electrocutions occurred inside the home that it is the one area I know of where building codes require that GFCI's be installed in existing homes regardless of when the house was built. Personally, I believe in retrofitting my own home with GFCI's even though it is not required by code, they are just too important and are not that expensive. My wife, me, and the grandkids (most of them anyway) are well worth the $8 a GFCI outlet costs.

Please do NOT ever replace a GFCI with a standard outlet!! GFCI's are there to save your life. If you have a GFCI that is tripping there is a problem that must be corrected. It is possible that the GFCI is defective, but most likely there is a low level current leakage somewhere in the circuit.Replacing the outlet with a standard outlet may cost you your life!

Sorry to be so long winded on this post, but GFCI's really are critical to saving human lives.

I may not be correct in some of the numbers above since I have been out of the electrical trade for many years, but I held a Master Electrician's License in Dallas, Texas for about 20 years so I am very aware of the hazards of electricity.

Perhaps someone who is current on the NEC will address the GFCI/sump pump. Personally, I see no reason NOT to have a GFCI on that outlet and would sure want one if I had a sump pump. Sticking my hand in water that has an electrical appliance running underwater seems to be to be a prescription for trouble if the pump has a problem.

Bill Tolle
 
   / A lot of water #16  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Here's my take on sump pumps and GFI outlets. Keep in mind it is only MY opinion. I do NOT want a GFI device to keep my sump pump from working. So what it has a leakage to the case of the pump. I'm not putting my hands down in the pit with the pump plugged in anyway.)</font>

Can you ABSOLUTELY guarantee me that one of your grandchildren playing in the area of the sump pump will not drop a toy into the sump and reach in after it? If you offer that guarantee you don't need the GFCI. On the other hand..............

Bill Tolle
 
   / A lot of water #17  
We all have opinions Bill /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

If NEC® Code Making Panel 2 felt as strongly about it as you do, they would have made it mandatory, but they haven't. Please submit a proposal for change in the 2008 NEC®
 
   / A lot of water #18  
I brought the plastic pipe up out of the sump pit and created a joint at about 4 feet. I use a rubber sleeve and 2 ss hose clamps to join it to the rest of the discharge pipe. I have a spare pump standing by that has the same length of pipe attached to it. If the pump in the sump pit fails, I undo one ss hose clamp, separate the pipes, unplug the pump, swap in the new pump, connect the discharge pipe, plug the pump in and I am back in business.

I had one of the battery powered pumps. Wasn't worth it. Pump wouldn't move much water and the battery didn't last long. I went to a portable generator.
 
   / A lot of water #19  
<font color="blue"> Sticking my hand in water that has an electrical appliance running underwater seems to be to be a prescription for trouble if the pump has a problem.
</font>

What about washing your hands in water from a well with a submersible pump? Just asking

PeterT
 
   / A lot of water #20  
GFCI's on sump pumps are not required if plugged into a single outlet, per the 2005 NEC®

<font color="blue"> (5) Unfinished basements — for purposes of this section, unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of the basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and the like

Exception No. 1 to (5): Receptacles that are not readily accessible.

Exception No. 2 to (5): A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two appliances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another and that is cord-and-plug connected in accordance with 400.7(A)(6), (A)(7), or (A)(8).

Exception No. 3 to (5): A receptacle supplying only a permanently installed fire alarm or burglar alarm system shall not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection.
</font>

If you feel better using one, go for it.
From someone who inspects Master Electricans work........
 

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