About to buy a grapple - your thoughts?

[amigauser]

thanks for the explanation but I'm still not clear. I didn't understand your point about the clamshell design putting the load closer to the fel arms...isn't the load under both cases rolled backwards? Or is the load in the clamshell design "squeezed" further back in the tines vs the flat-bottomed design it is squeezed at the tine tips?

Is that why you say the load is too far out with the flat bottom grapple?

thanks.

If you look at the two grapples (clamshell like WR Long or regular like Millonzi) side by side you will see that the clamshell design basically grabs and carries the load right in front of the FEL arms. The non-clamshell design carries and grabs the load at least 12 - 24 inches forward of the FEL arms. This in affect reduces the amount of weight that the grapple can pick up. The farther out from the FEL arms that the load is carried, the less load you can lift. My B3030 will only lift around 900 lbs to full height so I wanted to keep as much lift capacity as I could. That is why I went with a clamshell design. I also like the two hydraulic cylinder design on the 48" RBG2 better than the single on the 48" Millonzi.

RBG
Untitled Document

 

[IslandTractor]

Island - you convinced me to go narrower...outstanding summary, should be required reading for grapple buyers.

Still looking for some explanation on clamshell vs flat...

Prices:

Millonzi is $921 for the LD-48 and $1,554 for the LD-60
WR Long RBG-60 is $2,475 - I didn't get a RBG-2 price
CID 63" $1,460 (3/8" steel) or $1,610 (1/2" steel)

all prices w/o shipping.

I'd love to deal local but don't have a trailer so the freight cost of $225 is offset by the delivery fee and sales tax.

There are benefits to both clamshell and regular "flat" or traditional grapple designs. The clamshells are almost always more expensive for a given size as there is more metal and for the smaller ones always two vs one hydraulic ram.

First, while I have a lot of experience with the LD48, I've never operated a clamshell grapple. From what I can tell, the clamshell would be better at picking up small debris and has the ability to clamp on a single log of any size to hold it like a sawbuck. For most brush, stump and log moving operations I think the two designs are going to be about equal. The traditional Millonzi or newer WR Long types have the benefit of weighing and costing less for a given width. They also have their tines set vertically rather than with little baby shovel faces on the WR Long clamshell which I think makes root ripping more efficient. WRLong and several other companies make the traditional grapple with straight bottom tines...I don't know what the advantage is in doing that as the curved tines on the Millonzi are quite useful to curl under roots. In the era of CAD design and automated steel cutting equipment it seems that straight and curved tines would be equal in cost to produce.

If you are going to look at the WRLong clamshells then do look at their lighter duty RBG2 versions as they are cheaper and weigh less. I don't know what they would say about using one of those on your KL451 but as I've stated before, the grapple manufacturers tend to size everything by skidsteer horsepower/size considerations and those are too conservative for what most of us CUT owners do with our grapples.

 

[IslandTractor]

If you look at the two grapples (clamshell like WR Long or regular like Millonzi) side by side you will see that the clamshell design basically grabs and carries the load right in front of the FEL arms. The non-clamshell design carries and grabs the load at least 12 - 24 inches forward of the FEL arms.

I understand your point but in practice the load can be carried right up against the back of the Millonzi style grapple if it is heavy enough to be maxxing out the loader lift. You just curl after grappling and the load falls right up against the back of the grapple. I used the LD48 initially on a Kioti CK20/KL120 loader which has about the same lift capacity as your B3030/LA403 and did not have any trouble.

 

[Redbug]

I have a WR Long RBG2 60" and love it. It's the lighter duty grapple Long makes. It's the perfect tool for pushing slash and uprooting small trees and bushes.

However, for your specific uses I think you should also check into this brand (or type of rake/grapple):
Grapple

My reasoning is...the Longs have shorter tines with flat metal plates in between. Good for rooting, grubbing, and grabbing. The Bodozer types have longer tines, which should penetrate the ground deeper and comb thru the soil better. Better for screening rocks, roots, etc. I don't know what the price is for that grapple, but weight wise it is pretty much about the same weight of the heavier version WR Long, (RGB).

Opinions from the gang about the designs before John spends his money?

 

[buyerjohn]

I have a WR Long RBG2 60" and love it. It's the lighter duty grapple Long makes. It's the perfect tool for pushing slash and uprooting small trees and bushes.

However, for your specific uses I think you should also check into this brand (or type of rake/grapple):
Grapple


Opinions from the gang about the designs before John spends his money?

I called on the bodozer...built like a tank but very expensive... $3,515 for the 60" model.

Island - how much of an issue is the exposed cylinder on the milonzi?

 

[buyerjohn]

I have a WR Long RBG2 60" and love it. It's the lighter duty grapple Long makes. It's the perfect tool for pushing slash and uprooting small trees and bushes.

interesting that the wrlong dealer around here says the RBG2 is too light weight for my 45hp tractor!

 

[Redbug]

Whew! I didn't think the Bodozers were that much! I disagree with the dealer! I have a Kubota L3830 and have really put the nuts to the grapple with no bad results. Long as you are careful and don't go tearing into stumps at speed, etc.

 

[pitt_md]

interesting that the wrlong dealer around here says the RBG2 is too light weight for my 45hp tractor!

Call WR Long and talk to Nelson or Vance. I have a 50hp kubota and they recomended the RGB2 or the OBG2. One point to note is that the 54" OBG2 is about 100lbs heavier than the Millonzi LD60" so you will be loosing about 100lbs of lift with an OBG2. Not sure what your dealer had in mind?

 

[buyerjohn]

the RBG2-60 is $1,975 plus shipping...about $400 more than the millonzi...what size steel does the wr long version use? 3/8" primarily?

 

[pitt_md]

the RBG2-60 is $1,975 plus shipping...about $400 more than the millonzi...what size steel does the wr long version use? 3/8" primarily?

I think its about the same as the Millonzi. The LD60 I had was 3/8" tines except the outside tines which were 1/2". I didn't get to use the Millonzi I had for a few days but it looked like it was built to take anything you could put it through with a loader.

I should have my WR Long OBG2 in the next couple of days and I will tell you what I think when I get it.

 

[Redbug]

Here's a couple pics of the WR Long RBG2-60". Second pic is a job I did clearing a lot and the homeowner's wife (after watching for awile), wanted to try it out.

 

[rvaitor]

I bought a 'versatech' unit($1200) and paid another $815 for the hoses and stuff up front from WR Long(good folks).

I wonder if there is really that much difference between them all, primarily because our tractors really don't have the power to push much. They are really just suited to pick up brush and debris and pretty much any of them will do an adequate job of that.

 

[dknarnd]

I have the RBG2-60 on my 40hp and after using it for a few months now I would buy it again. My first choice was the one show that is sold out of WA but I just could not justify that price of over $3k, plus shipping, plus wet lines. The stealers that I went to also suggested the RBG model but there was no way I was going to put that weight up front so I talked to Nelson and he confirmed that they are consertative with their ratings. They have no idea who is going to buy and use the equipment so they have to figure on it being used in a business or rental equipment, where the owner usually is not the operator.

The majority of my work is geared towards picking up single logs, downed trees, or large rocks and it handles these tasks wonderfully. Take heed to Island's advice on staying small but be careful that you don't go to small either. For my loader I believe the 60" version is perfect, any smaller and it would be hard to see it in front of the tractor when picking up individual items, any larger and it would be hard to manuver and as mentioned cause undue stress on the loader arms.

 

[smitty9266]

Lets see if these pics help

RBG-60




The stump grapple



On my 16LA loader the loader capacity is 1700 lbs at the bucket roll pins and 1300 lbs 17 inches in front of the pins. Seems like a lot but.....
the quick attach plate moves the bucket out 4 inches so you are now at 1500 lbs add the bucket weight 565 lbs and it moves out another 6 inches. You have approx 1350 lbs capacity on the RBG. On the stump you are out at nearly 20 inches and a bucket weight of 300 lbs you are down to maybe 1000 lbs capacity

Mull all this over and ask more questions!!!

Jeff

 

[yekrut]

Great thread. Everyone seems level headed and interested in gathering good information. I agree with most and will try not to repeat things here (read this rather quickly) but just a couple things to add.

1. When I purchase my Millonzi LD 48 about a year ago and put it on my L39 I twisted the QA. Some of you researching may of seen this thread. At the time I wasn't real sure what happened. Inexperienced as I was I was mostly concerned with gettin it fixed so I could con't playin with my new toy. Fortunately, my Kubota Dealer (Lashley Tractors) sent a new one up the next day with a mechanic (80 miles) and I was back in business. Pays to have a good dealer. I'm sure now that the problem was NOT the L39 or the Millonzi grapple. I'm pretty sure now that when I mounted the grapple I didn't set the pin all the way in. I was a rookie and digging at a 12" diam. tree, roots and all, with the corner of the bucket. There was a lot of brush around (couldn't see real well) and I think I popped one side of the grapple off. I didn't notice this and I believe I continue going at the tree with the grapple with just one sideof the QA attached to it. The L39 has quite abit of Hydr.power (23+ gallons and 3 pumps) and it was all being applied to one QA. Since then I have put the Millonzi through quite a bit and it has performed terrific.

2. Island Tractor's info helped me chose what I did and I will also second (I guess that means I third) his analysis. I think most of the grapples mentioned do most of what we need. My thinking came down mostly this - why pay more for a larger, heavier grapple when you actually gain more lift , have more visibility, and can get into tighter areas with a lighter, smaller, cheaper one (greater performance and eficiency is Isl Trctr's point). For me I think I made a good decision (w/ help from Isl Trctr).

Here are a few picture of the twisted QA I mention and some grapple shots.
The last one is not related but I thought you guys may like it (Redneck Waterslide).

 

[IslandTractor]

Island - how much of an issue is the exposed cylinder on the milonzi?

I have the original LD48 from Millonzi which has no protection at all for the cylinder. I've never put a scratch on the cylinder with all the work I've done and only one time did I snag one of the small connector hoses to the cylinder which broke the hose fitting. That damage was done not while grappling but while pushing on a brush pile with the grapple closed. You can see the leaking hose on the front of the hydraulic ram. I think a stick popped through from the side and managed to snag the hose which did not tear the hose itself but twisted and damaged the hose swivel fitting when then leaked. Note the shiny fluid on the cylinder. I had a new hose fitting installed and I was good to go.

I believe the recent LD48s all have a protective plate under the cylinder which would protect the hydraulics better but also probably obstruct vision somewhat too.

 

[buyerjohn]

Here's where my head is...the pictures help a ton.

The wr long grapple looks great for brush, logs, picking large things up, etc but it appears its limitation will be in carrying more than one item, specifically rocks. It doesn't really have a place to hold one rock/boulder while picking up a second one. There really isn't a bucket to roll objects back into while adding an item to the load. And even if you could roll objects backwards, the spacing on the back supports is very wide making it better for brush than boulders. Let me be clear, by "rocks", I mean 75lbs+. The WR Long keeps the load closer to the pivot points, potentially giving it better lift capacity.

The Millonzi has longer "fingers" than the CID which I would imagine are better to skim under the surface with to pick up boulders and load 2 or more into the "bucket" and/or clamp down on larger items. The CID grapple does much the same as the Millonzi but doesn't have the same fingers but rather mini "spades" at the end of the tines which I'd think make it more difficult to skim just below the surface to move large rocks into the "bucket".

Both the Millonzi and the CID will pick up brush, etc in the same manner as the WR long but will require more of a scooping action rather than a picking action to clamp the object. The Millonzi and the CID will not be able to hold a log to buck in the same manner as the wr long.

Millonzi and CID are similarly priced but CID is built better with cylinder guards and hoses routed through the tubing. WR Long is about 25% more expensive probably because it can only be purchased through a dealer network. STOP - just got off the phone with John Millonzi....I'll post the newest design pics in a few...exciting stuff!

Any holes in my summary?

Can somebody post recent purchase prices for CID and/or Millonzi even if you were given last years price?

thanks, John.

 

[Redbug]

Hi John,

On the WR Long, you are right on the spacing of the back supports. There is not enough. I welded extra supports on the back to close in the large open space on mine. I was afraid debris would poke through the back and into the radiator, and help in holding stuff in. I also welded some metal to act as a shield and protect the hydro lines where they attach to the grapple. I felt the line connectors were too exposed especially when rolling the grapple with debris around.

 

[yekrut]

Here's where my head is...the pictures help a ton.
The WR Long keeps the load closer to the pivot points, potentially giving it better lift capacity.

Not sure I agree with this.

Both the Millonzi and the CID will pick up brush, etc in the same manner as the WR long but will require more of a scooping action rather than a picking action to clamp the object.

Let me save Isl. Trctr some typing. Usually you approach brush from above with tines of both the upper and lower jaw pointing nearly straight down. It may very depending on the type or layout of the brush and surroundings. Scooping will work also but I think you will find this method more efficient.

 

[IslandTractor]

Let me save Isl. Trctr some typing. Usually you approach brush from above with tines of both the upper and lower jaw pointing nearly straight down. It may very depending on the type or layout of the brush and surroundings. Scooping will work also but I think you will find this method more efficient.

Thanks.

Like this (photo) or alternatively with the scoop method or anything in between.