Advice on 5000 sq ft hobby bldg

[EddieWalker]

My builder wants to construct the building using US Steel 29 gauge steel. He buys the steel painted and precut in sheets, takes it to his shop and then bends it in his shop with a 5 bend pattern. He will put posts 6' deep and laminated rafters on about 9 1/2' centers. He buys the rafters from a truss company. .

This kind of has my scratching my head. It might be terminology, so I might be just clarify what you wrote, or this might be something to be aware of. 6 feet deep is extreme for a post. Here, we go 3 feet deep. 4 feet deep is for really bad soil in East Texas, but I've never had to deal with that stuff, it's closer to Dallas then in my area. 6 feet might make sense for Minnesota or someplace with extreme frost heave. Does it really get that cold there?

The advantage of poles in the ground is their strength going from inside the ground, to the top of the wall. That single, continuous post has an enormous amount of strength to it. Morton has been pioneering methods to get around this for an added cost that requires additional engineering that seems to work well, but in my opinion, it's something that solves a problem for more money and higher profits that doesn't actually exist. Modern pressure treated poles on a well drained building will easily last a hundred years.

Treated 6x6 posts come in 16 and 20 foot lengths in my area. I'm sure you can get longer ones for a premium if you want to spend the money, but why? A 20 foot post 4 feet in the ground will give you 16 foot walls and have the maximum strength possible for the lease amount of money.

 

[fried1765]

Couple of things jumped out to me in your description of what you want. First thing is about your builder? Have to talked to other builders and have you looked at other projects that he has done? Every building has "their" way of doing things, so what some of what you are saying he will do is probably what he is comfortable with doing and not necessarily what is the ideal way of doing things.

There are 3 basic ways of building a shop or a shed or a barn, that is basically a rectangular shell.

Pole building has poles in the ground and trusses spanning the roof. This is the most cost effective way to build. If you are going to finish off the interior walls, which will require framing, and if you are going to pour concrete, then stick framing becomes more cost effective. If you want maximum span and height, iron buildings are best.

From what you have stated, I think you should consider stick framing on top of a concrete foundation. Install metal on the ceiling and then blow in insulation. R10 isn't worth the money, and fiberglass batts in the attic for insulation or horrible inefficient because of all the gaps between them. One foot of blown in AttiCat insulation will give you R30. I personally prefer 2 feet for R60. I also don't think 29 guage metal should be used on metal building. It's too thin and easily damaged. It's cheaper, but in the long run, it will be more likely to give you issues over 26 gauge. I've also heard a few things about US Steel that causes me to be hesitant to use them. From what I understand, it's sales person driven company that farms out suppliers after they get you to agree to buy from them, and you rarely know who that is until it arrives at your location. If you have any issues, then you have to deal with the supplier. I wouldn't put any faith in a warrantee from any company. Best case scenario is that they give you replacement material, but usually you have to jump through hoops for that, and if they agree to give you the replacement materials, it's then up to you to do the work yourself or hire it out This is true with every warrantee for every home product that I've ever dealt with, from flooring, to faucets, and everything else.

"If you have any issues, then you have to deal with the supplier. I wouldn't put any faith in a warrantee from any company. Best case scenario is that they give you replacement material, but usually you have to jump through hoops for that, and if they agree to give you the replacement materials, it's then up to you to do the work yourself or hire it out."

This was ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE with Morton!

I had an issue (bad gable truss - roof ridge not straight), and Morton took all the gable end siding off, replaced the gable truss, and replaced all the gable end steel, as well as some roof steel.
Promptly done...absolutely no hassle...completely covered under warranty.

I have been an avid Morton proponent for the past 35 years as a result.
They did me right!

 

[ovrszd]

There are 3 basic ways of building a shop or a shed or a barn, that is basically a rectangular shell.

Pole building has poles in the ground and trusses spanning the roof. This is the most cost effective way to build. If you are going to finish off the interior walls, which will require framing, and if you are going to pour concrete, then stick framing becomes more cost effective. If you want maximum span and height, iron buildings are best.

From what you have stated, I think you should consider stick framing on top of a concrete foundation. Install metal on the ceiling and then blow in insulation. R10 isn't worth the money, and fiberglass batts in the attic for insulation or horrible inefficient because of all the gaps between them. One foot of blown in AttiCat insulation will give you R30. I personally prefer 2 feet for R60. I also don't think 29 guage metal should be used on metal building. It's too thin and easily damaged. It's cheaper, but in the long run, it will be more likely to give you issues over 26 gauge.

I am Blessed with a very good Builder. In our pre-build discussions he said the things you state above.

 

[ovrszd]

"If you have any issues, then you have to deal with the supplier. I wouldn't put any faith in a warrantee from any company. Best case scenario is that they give you replacement material, but usually you have to jump through hoops for that, and if they agree to give you the replacement materials, it's then up to you to do the work yourself or hire it out."

This was ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE with Morton!

I had an issue (bad gable truss - roof ridge not straight), and Morton took all the gable end siding off, replaced the gable truss, and replaced all the gable end steel, as well as some roof steel.
Promptly done...absolutely no hassle...completely covered under warranty.

I have been an avid Morton proponent for the past 35 years as a result.
They did me right!

Did you pay Morton for the materials and then pay a builder to assemble?

 

[747driver]

Did you pay Morton for the materials and then pay a builder to assemble?

Morton pretty much makes everything. They do get there windows from a supplier, roll-up and overhead doors from local suppliers. Overhead door from Knoxville installed my doors which was in the materials list. They build their own trusses, purlins, laminated posts. All framing lumber is #2 or better. They buy their own metal ( siding,roofing and trim ) in coil stock then form and paint per job request. They also make their own perma column systems. All the employees and job crews are employed by Morton. Even the truck drivers and trucks are Morton owned. They supply a porta potty and roll-off dumpster at each job site. They have a big plant in Alabama that supplies for the southern states. One in Morton, IL also. They own all their equipment to erect whatever their building. When the materials were delivered they unloaded, stacked and wrapped in plastic to keep weather out. I did a walkaround every day and then gave the crew a list of things I wanted fixed....no problems ! In the grand scheme of things Morton is not that expensive when you include everything they do and the quality of materials. Being remote in the mtns didn't offer any local quality builders so we went with Morton. Took 6 days to build our 30x50x16.

 

[747driver]

Did you pay Morton for the materials and then pay a builder to assemble?

Morton pretty much makes everything. They do get there windows from a supplier, roll-up and overhead doors from local suppliers. Overhead door from Knoxville installed my doors which was in the materials list. They build their own trusses, purlins, laminated posts. All framing lumber is #2 or better. They buy their own metal ( siding,roofing and trim ) in coil stock then form and paint per job request. They also make their own perma column systems. All the employees and job crews are employed by Morton. Even the truck drivers and trucks are Morton owned. They supply a porta potty and roll-off dumpster at each job site. They have a big plant in Alabama that supplies for the southern states. One in Morton, IL also. They own all their equipment to erect whatever their building. When the materials were delivered they unloaded, stacked and wrapped in plastic to keep weather out. I did a walkaround every day and then gave the crew a list of things I wanted fixed....no problems ! In the grand scheme of things Morton is not that expensive when you include everything they do and the quality of materials. Being remote in the mtns didn't offer any local quality builders so we went with Morton. Took 6 days to build our 30x50x16.

 

[ovrszd]

Thanks for the excellent response 747.

So a construction error is very easy to correct. No finger pointing back and forth as there might be if a separate contractor constructed the Morton building.

 

[jmc]

I did Mortons in 1992 for a machine shop and in 2003 at home. They were a very impressive outfit. They used a regional sub for concrete but I saved about half on the floor by doing the prep myself and using a local concrete firm.

Their laminated poles made sense to me. 3 each 2x6s glued and nailed on site. Boards were shorter than the overall pole length but they overlapped the butt joints. (Like bricks in a wall) The boards below grade were treated and above grade were plain. Sales point was that a lamination of individual boards have better treatment penetration than a solid 6x6. They claimed to have seen a lot of old, solid 6x6s with the core rotted out. At the top end, they left the inside board short which left a central notch in the post that the rafter nested inside of. Looks nice and the rafter is supported on both sides. Probably easier to assemble too.

They brought in Ford TLB with an auger on the BH. Later, they mounted a work platform on the side of the TLB and just drove it along the walls to work on the higher stuff. Probably used it with a boom on the loader for setting the rafters.

They recommended 14' eaves because it's just a little more material but tall enough to drive a cement truck inside so you don't need a cement pump or watered down cement to reach the back. The extra height has been handy sometimes. (I know that you'll do that anyway but others might follow this thread)

I dented the siding ribs in one spot about a half inch deep and the width of my loader bucket while backfilling the site. Still no rust in the dents after 17 years.

 

[EddieWalker]

"If you have any issues, then you have to deal with the supplier. I wouldn't put any faith in a warrantee from any company. Best case scenario is that they give you replacement material, but usually you have to jump through hoops for that, and if they agree to give you the replacement materials, it's then up to you to do the work yourself or hire it out."

This was ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE with Morton!

I had an issue (bad gable truss - roof ridge not straight), and Morton took all the gable end siding off, replaced the gable truss, and replaced all the gable end steel, as well as some roof steel.
Promptly done...absolutely no hassle...completely covered under warranty.

I have been an avid Morton proponent for the past 35 years as a result.
They did me right!

I wasn't aware that we where discussing hiring Morton to build this building. I was replying to the post about hiring a specific builder that was going to get his metal from US Steel, and how worthless warranties are on just about every item used to build a house or barn.


From what I've heard, Morton is probably the best barn building company out there, or at least the standard that all the others are measured to. If available in his area, it would be worthwhile contacting them and having them give him a bid. That will at least give him more information to compare other contractors to.

 

[cold1313]

For what it's worth, I am gathering estimates for a 60x80. There is a ~30x30 Morton building that was installed by the previous owners in the late 90's. Ceiling is leaking and since I'm not the original owner of the building, no help from Morton. Fine.

I called Morton about a quote and the local rep. asked if I had already received quotes, which I said yes.
He asked for a ballpark figure of what the competitor (local) quoted and he agreed with the number and said that's what he expected.
Followed up by stating Morton will come in at around 3x that price. He pretty much ended the conversation there, as he knew nobody would consider paying 3x more when the local contractors do good work (his words).

I don't plan on contacting Morton again for an updated quote.