Buying Advice Advice on L3400 Purchase

[8226hamer]

IslandTractor. With all due respect I believe that this logic is flawed.

That Kubota changed the CAM style of the PTO is NOT evidence that there was ANY systemic weakness with the engineering design. This is merely an assumption.

Maybe your assumption is correct ... however ... maybe it is not. Widespread failures of the PTO on the many tractors that have been sold would be evidence. There is no such evidence.

I think it is not unlikely the the PTO change is related more to the noise of the racheting action of the ORC. This is an assumption on my part also..

The facts would dictate that nobody really knows why Kubota made this and any other change in production. Bear in mind that there is NO ORC anymore - which makes me wonder what the original ORC was trying to protect and why that protection is not needed anymore.

I'm not suggesting that I know more than you or anybody else regarding this situation.. but... it is incorrect IMHO to state things as fact when they are not.

Do you have proof that there was NOT evidence of widespread PTO problems from the old style PTO cams?
The more I researched the problems that I was having with the PTO system on my tractor, the more I found that I wasn't the only one that has had problems. There are others, but you didn't read about it on TBN.
I hope the change in cams that the new tractors incorporate will fix the problems. I'm sure the ratchet noise was part of the reason for the change, but I'm also positive it wasn't the only reason. There is evidence that old style PTO cams are prone to fail under some types of operating applications. Kubota admitted this to me the second time my system failed. The problem was there and with the new style cams, I hope the problem no longer exist.

 

[canoetrpr]

Do you have proof that there was NOT evidence of widespread PTO problems from the old style PTO cams?
The more I researched the problems that I was having with the PTO system on my tractor, the more I found that I wasn't the only one that has had problems. There are others, but you didn't read about it on TBN.
I hope the change in cams that the new tractors incorporate will fix the problems. I'm sure the ratchet noise was part of the reason for the change, but I'm also positive it wasn't the only reason. There is evidence that old style PTO cams are prone to fail under some types of operating applications. Kubota admitted this to me the second time my system failed. The problem was there and with the new style cams, I hope the problem no longer exist.

Hi 8226hammer.

Surely you see that this argument is not logical. For us to claim that there are widespread problems with this or any tractors PTO design a body of evidence needs to exist to draw a logical conclusion - and not the oppositte.

I'm willing to bet that more people come looking for forums when they have problems rather than when they do not.

Certainly the failures that your machine has experienced are not widespread on this forum as other problems (for example the Kioti loader cracks).

I'd be very interested to know what other information you have about others that have experienced problems. How many? Where the symptoms similar to yours?

To claim that Kubota "admitted" to you that these PTOs are likely to fail under some type of operating conditions, on the basis of ONE Kubota regional SALES rep is misleading. The company is many thousands of employees and the sales reps are generally not experts in PTO CAM design when offering you up a new model as an upgrade. That Kubota sales rep did not offer up the CAM replacement either as a solution so its not clear to me how informed he was.

I'm not suggesting to you that I know something magical that can explain things away. What I do know at this point is that I have not found any real evidence of a widespread problem with the PTO. If you have some then I'd be appreciative of it. I am simply examining the facts and refuting what I think are illogical concusions based on the same set of facts. In my view the facts are these:

- There have not been widespread PTO or other failures reported with the L2800/L3400 tractors on this forum.

- When approached, service departments don't seem to be aware of any widespread problem either. I've talked to several service departments.

- This series of tractors is selling extremly well and rototilling isn't exactly that wierd of an application. Many people rototill.

- Live PTOs have been around for a LONG time and have been used in all kinds of applications.

- ORCs (while better located) have been in use for a LONG time.

- Kubota has been making very reliable tractors for a LONG time. This series of tractors actually tends to use parts from their older models. The 3PT valve is from the L3010. All of the technology here is pretty proven - nothing really novel IMHO.

It may be that you are right and that there is a widespread problem which has escaped this forum. I'd appreciate any information you have regarding this.

 

[canoetrpr]

BTW. While we are at this topic.

Does anybody understand why there might have been an ORC on an HST tractor in the first place? Since this is an HST tractor it is not like the momentum from a disengaged implement would propel the tractor forward even though the operator had disengaged the main clutch.

It is my understanding that ORCs were generally used in older tractors for the above reason.

HST versions of these tractors both have a live PTO and should not be subject to the issue that ORCs were traditionally used for.

This makes me think that the original design with the ORC was intended to relieve pressure on something. Surprising that it is not needed anymore... but that means that when the clutch is depressed, the momentum from the implement is driving something which the original ORC was meant to prevent.

I might be totally off base here... what am I missing.

BTW. Interestingly the spec sheet on the Kubota website still lists the PTO type on the HST versions of L2800/L3400 as Live-continuous with ROC.

 

[RayMunising]

Who opened this can of worms again?

How many owners of L3400/L2800 do we have here on TBN? How many of those owners use a ground engaging PTO implement? I'm willing to bet the number is pretty small.

The factory rep told Hamer the PTO on the L3400 is designed for non-ground engaging implements and recommended Hamer downgrade (my opinion) to a B3030 with an independent PTO for running a tiller. As someone who has not yet purchased a tractor I'm going to take that advice and buy a tractor with an independent PTO ... in my case a GL3240.

There's bigger differences between the L and the GL line then a fancy dash and a comfy seat. Do your research before you buy.

 

[canoetrpr]

Who opened this can of worms again?
How many owners of L3400/L2800 do we have here on TBN? How many of those owners use a ground engaging PTO implement? I'm willing to bet the number is pretty small.

I am guilty of opening up this can of worms. I seen no problem with it. It is intelligent discussion on all sides and information that is worthwhile to someone looking into purchasing one of these tractors - new or used.

I don't think that a rototiller is that wierd of an implement to be honest. Maybe lots more people use mowers than rototillers but lots of people use rototillers.

There is simply an assumption in your point and not fact. Maybe your assumption is correct. Maybe it is not. Given that at least one of Hamer's failures was after using the tiller for something like 20 hours or so - I think that level of weakness in the PTO system would have been visible across the board. We are not talking about something that manifests itself after hundreds or thousands of hours of tilling - something that might have been outside the scope of what Kubota's QA team was able to test.

The factory rep told Hamer the PTO on the L3400 is designed for non-ground engaging implements and recommended Hamer downgrade (my opinion) to a B3030 with an independent PTO for running a tiller. As someone who has not yet purchased a tractor I'm going to take that advice and buy a tractor with an independent PTO ... in my case a GL3240..

I do not believe that Hamer claimed that the rep he spoke to told him flat out that this tractor is not designed to run ground engaging implements. My understanding is that this is what Hamer concluded from talking to the rep. The rep also said other things that were not accurate. I'd be interested if Hamer could clarify this.

One failure and something inferred by what one person who works for Kubota said does not a general trend in poor reliability make.

It is your perogative to do what you believe is best. I think that the the Grand L series are fabulous machines and for what it is worth I think you are getting a lot of tractor for little extra money - particularly when coupled with the L724 loader.

To be honest, if I were to do it again I might have gone Grand L as well but not because of reliability worries. There is just not enough evidence IMHO to suggest that. You know at the time I was looking at tractors and deciding between the L3400 and the L3130 and others there was a guy that was having an incessant problem with his L3130 not having enough power. It was but one situation. Bad news tends to get a lot of mielage. I was concerned enough at the time that this drove me towards the simpler tractor among other reasons. It was wholly unwarranted. You can't generalise until there is adequate evidence.

One can come up different assumptions here to be devil's advocate. One could say that the 40 series are brand new tractors with major HST changes and they have a lot more complexity about them and that maybe that makes them less reliable over all than the "economy" series. Thats about as valid assumption as anyone making general statements about the L2800/L3400 reliability after a single occurance of a problem. Live PTOs have also been around a long long time and have been quite reliable. Of course I believe you are in safe hands - they are new but it is a Kubota and you've got a warranty and hopefully a great dealer...

There's bigger differences between the L and the GL line then a fancy dash and a comfy seat. Do your research before you buy.

Agreed. Despite being a L3400 owner I think that the GL line is a better buy. You get lots more for not much more money. Plus you get the benefit of Kubota not referring to your tractor as an 'Economy' model. I may have spent the money for that alone . Based on the evidence that is out there however, I don't think that there is any reason for anyone to think that the L3400 will be more or less reliable than the Grand L. Lots of people have the "economy" series tractors from previous generations and there is no suggestion yet that they are any less reliable.

 

[RayMunising]

I am guilty of opening up this can of worms.

You'll get no more argument from me. All I'm saying is do your research before you purchase. You generally hear the economy L just lacks some of the bells and whistles of the GL but that doesn't tell the whole story.

I'm well aware of the RAMON49/GL3130 saga. He certainly had issues and I'll leave it a that.

I have no concern about the reliability of the new HST-Plus in the GL series ... I want a FST trans with the optional creeper gear.

 

[canoetrpr]

I can't disagree with you on the doing your research part Ray.

The difference is definately more than the dash, comfy seat, telescopic links etc. The PTO is hydraulic independant vs. live continuous, the loader is stronger on the GL and hydraulic pump capacity higher and of course the extra weight. New with the 40 series is of course the HST+ compared with the simple HST in the L2800/L3400 which from time to time requires that you depress the HST pedal to shift between ranges (I imagine that the GL does not require this).

All that said, the L2800/L3400 are STILL great bang for the buck.

I can't agree that the B3030 should be considered as a downgrade. The B series tractors have different strenghts period. The extra weight of the L is not useful if one of your primary applications is mowing. If anything I would think that the B series are designed a lot more with the average acerage owner in mind and the L with the hobby farmer.

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[RayMunising]

I can't agree that the B3030 should be considered as a downgrade. The B series tractors have different strenghts period. The extra weight of the L is not useful if one of your primary applications is mowing. If anything I would think that the B series are designed a lot more with the average acerage owner in mind and the L with the hobby farmer.

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You are missing the point. If an L size tractor is the correct size tractor for the applications it was purchased for then going from an L series tractor to a B series tractor would be a downgrade.

 

[canoetrpr]

You are missing the point. If an L size tractor is the correct size tractor for the applications it was purchased for then going from an L series tractor to a B series tractor would be a downgrade.

Guess we will agree to disagree Ray.

The physical size of the tractor is only one aspect of it. For all intents and purposes the B3030 is very much a premuim tractor for the kinds of applications it was meant to excel it. It's got a lot of goodies that the bare bones L2800 does not - independant PTO, racheting turnbuckles, telescopic links and so on. Heck it even costs more. I'm sure as heck not suggesting it is an upgrade and while there is lots of grey area where the L series and B series can do about the same stuff - you can't consider a tractor as a downgrade because it is smaller physically.

Realistically neither of us really know why Hamer went with the economy L originally over B. Considering that his previous tractors where B series (B2910) and he is doing the same kind of work with it, all we are entitled to is our own interpretation of these things.

 

[RayMunising]

Guess we will agree to disagree Ray.

Fair enough.

It sounds like the L3400HST was the right choice for you and I agree you get a lot of bang for your buck. It's the tractor I was sold on and I doubt I would have been disappointed with it but I decided to spend a little extra to get the GL. I have no interest in the bells and whistles but I do believe the independent PTO is worth the additional price and with the GL I can get a fully synchronized gear trans with a creeper gear which is the trans I prefer.

Besides I don't want to spend $20K on an economy tractor! Just kidding.

Someone needs to tell Kubota to lay off that economy talk. It certainly doesn't sit well with me and I don't even own one.