Am I wrong?

[EddieWalker]

Interesting situation. For $2,000 he doesn't need a lawyer, just file it in small claims court and start the process to put a lien on your place. While he is way off on his estimate, there doesn't seem to be any sort of contract on what he would charge. Just the estimate.

His failure to inform you that he was wrong on the estimate reflects allot about the guy. Probably having money problems and raising his rates while on the job to make more money.

Here, it's fairly common for some of the less desirable operators to streth the number of hours worked by a fair margin. They will add driving time to the job, coffee drinking time, greasing and fueling time, repairs and cleaning time and if that's not enough, then just plain out lie about how many hours they were operating the machine. I still hire out work from time to time, and when I do, I keep my own record of the hours they work. Before hiring them, I make sure we are on the same page on what I'm paying for. If it's hourly, then I specify it's hours running the maching, not hours thinking about it.

Many well known and fairly big companies fall apart when the owner starts drinking, gets a divorce or gets in over his head gabling. The list goes on and on, but there is that point when a good reputation goes out the window and they start taking advantage of clients.

Sounds like you were taken advantage of.

Eddie

 

[firefighter9208]

Leadpoison,


What state are you in??? In Alabama there is no sales tax on labor. Dozier work would be considered labor. Now if he installed a drainage pipe for you, then you would have to pay sales tax on the pipe, but not the installation. At least in Alabama that's the way it works.


Chris

 

[jinman]

I see several issues that will probably come up if this goes to a legal case or even binding arbitration. I'm no lawyer, so this is just my instinct talking.

Since there was an "estimate," it's my opinion that you should have established how much over the estimate you would be willing to go with out approving more work. For example, if it was estimated at $4,000, then you would say up to $500 more before getting additional time approved. Evidently there was no such agreement.

You also said that he did all the work you wanted, but you thought it took too long. In actuality, you got all the work accomplished, not more or less. If you say it took too long, then you will have to supply expert witnesses who can testify that the job took too long. Those experts will have to be uninterested third parties rather than relatives or friends of yours who might have bias.

Finally, I think you will have to show that you did not know how much time he was putting in. If he quoted you an hourly rate, then can you show that you had no idea of how long he was on the job? If you knew he was working longer hours, then you probably had some responsibility to ask him before he used more of his time.

Sadly, neither you nor he will be happy with the outcome. I won't lecture you about what you should have done because that's obvious in hindsight. The most you can hope for is a compromise you can live with. Just keep a cool head and work through this to best solution.

 

[George2615]

I was also charged 8.5% tax. I was a little shocked on that one as well. If he is trying to hide the income I don't think he would charge tax. Has anyone ever been charged tax for tractor/dozer work?

By the way he says he is going to sue and put a lein on the place. I would rather do some type of arbitration through the BBB for sure. I am sticking to my gut on this one and I am willing to go the extra mile.

If he is going to sue then I would contact the BBB or the small claims court clerk to speak with someone about this.

He gave you a verbal estimate for the work to be done. He did the work and you paid him the verbally estimated price he quoted.

If his fee to you was going to exceed the estimate he should have contacted you before continuing. Its not your fault he underestimated the job.

I'm not a lawyer either but without anything in writing or unless you verbally agreed to pay him more money should the job take more time to complete I don't think he has a leg to stand on trying to charge you more than the agreed estimated price.

 

[kthompson]

As has been pointed out the sales tax varies from state to state.
Just because he charged or showed sales tax does not mean he is paying it to the state. Our state takes real offense to that.
Verbal contracts can be binding, just hard to enforce.
Can you figure out how long he was on the job? If so does it work out to what he said.
As to the BBB, my experience with them is worthless. You do realize they are a business and have no legal authority, don't you?
If the amount in dispute is $2,000 and this is the 150% he charge over what was given, that had to be only about $1,300 to begin with. Is that reasonable for what he was to do?
Sadly as others have said, a technique of sorry people to get job and then get more money, maybe what it should have been quoted at to begin with.

This reminds me of a case in small claims court here the last time I was on jury duty. A couple I knew (why I did not sit on the case) hired a guy to put in septic tank and system with verbal price. He billed for a few hundred more. Do not remember who sued who but per the judge who I saw the next day he admitted on the stand he did work and then billed for it that was not in what he was hired for. He thought it needed doing or such.

 

[dodge man]

I am a land surveyor and everything we do requires a contract. We have two basic ways of doing work, "time and materials", and "lump sum". Sometimes we say "time and materials not to exceed", that way there is an upper limit. Even when we do a straight time and materials we put down a price range of say "$1500-$2000" and in bold text it says "ESTIMATE". I'm not trying to take his side, but it was an estimate. In the example I gave, I would not feel bad billing the client $2500 for the job. On the other hand, there is no way I could bill $5000 unless the client added work. It's at my bosses descretion how much to bill, but we rarely bill much beyond the upper limit listed in our contract.

In other words, 2.5 times greater is way to much, but I can't adivise you what to do since you don't have a written contract. Don't feel bad, I have had a lot of home improvement work done without a contract, and so far, no problems.

And in Illinois, we don't charge sales tax for our services.

 

[LeadPoison]

I am in Mississippi. Basically he told me 16-20 hours. I got billed for 44.5. I have the dates of work listed on the invoice. It was spread out over 3 weeks. So I did not know when he was there and wasn't. No consitency.

 

[DWCox]

Aside from your initial question, I would be curious how an individual plans to walk in off the street and successfully put a lien on your property for any sum that pleases them without demonstrating evidence. Your lawyer should be able to take care of that with little problem.

Obviously verbal agreements are legally binding; but proving the terms of such agreements is another thing altogether--particularly if those terms are disputed. In the end this contractor is likely to discover that a clearly-written contract is as necessary for him as it would prove useful for you.

 

[dodge man]

You can file a lein for a small fee in the courthouse. At that time you don't have to prove anything. It doesn't really even mean anything until you go to sell the property, then it has to be resolved.

 

[Wayne County Hose]

I'm the same way. Most of my business is done verbally and sealed with a handshake. The day I have to stop doing business that way is the day I stop doing business. You have witnesses. Get a lawyer. It is not reasonable for him to go over by this amount without consulting you. Launch a pre-emptive strike. Have a lawyer write him a letter stating the terms you agreed upon and that your payment was considered the final and full payment.

 

[2manyrocks]

What he can do depends on the mechanics lien statute in Mississippi. It probably allows him to file a lien, but requires him to sue to enforce it or lose it within a certain time frame.

If I understand your post, you and two relatives heard him give his initial estimate. The final outcome may depend upon your local judge and his understanding of what was agreed to. The way you have presented this, it sounds like a lowball estimate followed by an unexpectedly large bill.

I suggest you get another dozer operator to come look at the work that was done and tell you if the time expended was reasonable or if he is padding the bill. You'd want an operator who would be willing to come to court with you if needed to testify what time should have been required to do the job.

If the judge thinks the guy was just padding his time, he ought to reduce the bill down to the reasonable time multiplied by the hourly rate you agreed to.

Why did the other people recommend this guy to you after he had overbilled them?

 

[LeadPoison]

We have decided to write him a cordial letter restating our feelings. If no dice, then we are going for a preemptive strike.

The other people recommended him as they used him many times before. He did my work the same time as my neighbor's.

 

[scoutcub]

If his upper end estimate was 20 hours and he billed you for 44.5, he is just dead wrong. Should have consulted you at 25 or 30, to see how you wanted to proceed. I'm sure he kept track of his hourmeter while on the job. The threat of placing a lien (to me) is proof he is trying to scare you into paying, for whatever financial reason on his part.
I would not personally write a letter to him, you'll be re-stating what has already been said.
I would;
1. open the phone book, identify some reputable attorneys. (I would try 3)
2. call them, ask for a few moments of their time, and explain the situation. Request their opinion. They will know the local and state law. Confirm this "verbal" time will not be billed. (yes a lawyer tried it on me before)
3. Ask if they will send a letter to the individual with their letterhead, stating you consider the matter closed/job paid in full/or whatever the attorney and you agree upon. A letter from an attorney is a powerful device, and the dozer dude will realize you are serious.
Again, this is what "I" would do....I've done it, and it works.
It's unfortunate when disagreements reach this level, perhaps that's why there are so many lawyers around?! But, they know the law.
Best of luck whatever direction you proceed.

 

[rox]

You can file a lein for a small fee in the courthouse. At that time you don't have to prove anything. It doesn't really even mean anything until you go to sell the property, then it has to be resolved.

Not necessarily in Wisconsin and I imagine other states as well. To go out and throw a lien on a property without backup documentation is called slandering the title and don't ask me how I know this. The OP should look up Slander of Title laws for his state.

 

[dodge man]

I'm not saying you can file a lein without reason and not get in trouble. I'm saying you can record it and the people at the land records office don't care. Like another poster said, at some point you have to take action to recover your money and then you file another document releasing the lein. A lein doesn't really do anything unless you are trying to sell the property, then it becomes a problem.

 

[2manyrocks]

Watch what you put in the letter because if this goes to court, the letter will likely be handed to the judge to read. It's a written document and judges pay attention to written documents.

 

[Highbeam]

Here in WA I have hired machine operators, loggers, etc. and not signed a contract. I was treated fairly and paid my bills. Everybody is happy. I have hired a surveyor and been hired as an engineer and used contracts as these are professionals. Again, I was treated fairly and paid my bills. Everybody is happy.

I don't think that a written contract is necessary on these small jobs. I mean really, a couple of thousand dollars worth of exposure is not going to break me. The larger the estimate, the more likely I am to get a written contract.

 

[kenmac]

I know this doesn't help now. But,
An estimate is only an estimate ( not an exact price) There should have been an agreement not to exceed a specific $ amount over the estimate.That's the way my estimates are written. If both of you can't agree a fair $ anount over the estimate.It may take a judge to decide.
Good luck

 

[wowbw7]

i see a problem with 'Should have consulted you at 25 or 30' hours. he's half done with the job.... and then asks for more money? you know he's not gonna do that. too embarrassing. easier to finish the job then overcharge you. the operator shouldn't be in business if he doesn't know how to estimate his work. he should eat the rest of the time it takes to finish the job and learn from his mistake. even if you get others to give you an estimate that is close to what he has charged you, that doesn't make his actions right. let him take you to court. with your witnesses, he'll think twice.

 

[Mike Costello]

My experience as a small business owner(automotive) is that in this case the homeowner has the upper hand. Since neither party has any written documentation(work done on a handshake only) the judge will probably rule that all parties have been satisfied. This is so because small claims court is specifically designed to return all parties to an equal basis without blabby lawyers.
In most states, liens on property are genarally good for 10 years, but can only be filed AFTER a judgement has been rendered for the plaintif, Mr. Dozerman. I seriously doubt any judge would rule in his favor because his added charges are unreasonable and he can't support them with proper documentation.

I've done my share of small claims, mostly because people would not pay me after work had been done. It had nothing to do with quality of work; I was too much a Mr. Nice Guy and let the people have their vehicles back with a promise to pay that never came.
Some observations on small claims court:
1) The guy with the most documentation usually wins.
2) Judges deal only in hard justifiable facts.
3) Emotions and feelings don't count.
4) Judges handle many cases. See item 1 above.
5) Only judgements are rendered. Payment is another matter entirely.
6) Filing a judgement lien costs money.
7) Judges don't like BS. He who talks the most fails to win.

Suprisingly, I never lost a case in small claims court. Collecting on them was usually an exercise in frustration though. One case in particular really upset me because the judge wished me good luck on getting paid after ruling in my favor. The other guy laughed all the way out the door. So, I went down the hall and filed a lien on his property. Nothing happend for about 4 years--until he sold his property. The escrow company paid me for my original judgement plus 4 years reasonable interest and all court costs before the property sale could be completed. The guy called me everything in the book over that one! Patience has its rewards!
When I sold my business, I took my file of unpaid judgements and made a visit to the restroom....the rest you can figure out for yourselves! Satisfaction comes in many forms! Good luck, Mike.