Another confused first timer

   / Another confused first timer #291  
I think my perspective is the same as any mechanic.

We can see that an ECM and common rail system should be more efficient than a mechanical injection system. At least it certainly has the potential to be.

But the difference today is that although I can diagnose the mechanical system with basic tools that I am familiar with using, I cannot do that with ECM & Common Rail (CR) because access is denied by the manufacturer.

The ECM & CR technology is simple, and there is no reason in the world why a mechanic shouldn't be able to plug any ECM into a home computer to examine and modify how both ECM and injectors are working. That is just basic diagnosis.

But we cannot do that if the software and even the connectors are proprietary & "dealer only".

Keeping that access proprietary is pure selfishness on the part of politicians and big business. It is a profit motivated effort to exclude mechanics and owners everywhere.

Please support the "Right to Repair" movement.
rScotty
 
   / Another confused first timer #292  
^^^ TOTALLY!

I've got totally manual setups (my generator, my 12v cummins, my B7800) and I've got computerized stuff. Everything I have works and continues to work just as I need. My car has an ECM and it's 21 years old: can it go bad? Yes. Need I be worrying about that? NO. (ECM has only minimal engine control stuff; I do have software/hardware to check with- so far only thing that I've ever had fail has been a MAF [$100 part- 2 minutes to change out]). I wouldn't trade my car for any new car. I also wouldn't trade it for any older car.

It comes down to what risk an individual is willing to take. To each their own, just as it should be. But, they're not making the old stuff anymore, so one day the options will be drastically reduced.
 
   / Another confused first timer #293  
I think my perspective is the same as any mechanic.

We can see that an ECM and common rail system should be more efficient than a mechanical injection system. At least it certainly has the potential to be.

But the difference today is that although I can diagnose the mechanical system with basic tools that I am familiar with using, I cannot do that with ECM & Common Rail (CR) because access is denied by the manufacturer.

The ECM & CR technology is simple, and there is no reason in the world why a mechanic shouldn't be able to plug any ECM into a home computer to examine and modify how both ECM and injectors are working. That is just basic diagnosis.

But we cannot do that if the software and even the connectors are proprietary & "dealer only".

Keeping that access proprietary is pure selfishness on the part of politicians and big business. It is a profit motivated effort to exclude mechanics and owners everywhere.

Please support the "Right to Repair" movement.
rScotty

It’s actually the emissions regulations that are the main reason you can’t access much without proprietary software. Same principal as tamperproof adjustments on carburetors - you can adjust an engine out of emission compliance with that software and the way the rules are written the manufacturer is often still liable for the non compliance.

Unfortunately the manufacturers are all too happy to keep it proprietary and keep everyone else locked out for obvious reasons.

Right to repair needs to be on everyone’s agenda especially these days when government professes to promote reducing waste. There is no good reason to junk everything after a few years but manufacturers have never supported products much more than about 5 years, that was always the bread and butter of aftermarket. Without right to repair, aftermarket is shut out of supporting older products.

Emission rules even make it illegal to replace some emission components with non OEM so once the OEM support is gone it’s illegal to repair. Stop the insanity as someone used to say.
 
   / Another confused first timer #294  
It’s actually the emissions regulations that are the main reason you can’t access much without proprietary software. Same principal as tamperproof adjustments on carburetors - you can adjust an engine out of emission compliance with that software and the way the rules are written the manufacturer is often still liable for the non compliance.

Unfortunately the manufacturers are all too happy to keep it proprietary and keep everyone else locked out for obvious reasons.

Right to repair needs to be on everyone’s agenda especially these days when government professes to promote reducing waste. There is no good reason to junk everything after a few years but manufacturers have never supported products much more than about 5 years, that was always the bread and butter of aftermarket. Without right to repair, aftermarket is shut out of supporting older products.

Emission rules even make it illegal to replace some emission components with non OEM so once the OEM support is gone it’s illegal to repair. Stop the insanity as someone used to say.
You can provide access to information AND be kept from changing things that ought not be changed. I see no problem with this: VCDS, which is an aftermarket diagnostic tool for VAG (Volkswagon Automative Group), allows you to check lots of things, adjust some, and disallows modifications to others. I believe that owners should at least be able to know what the computer believes is problematic as this could point to something simple. And herein lies the problem with such tools- they give you something to go by but they're not going to tell you for certain what is wrong.

"Emission rules even make it illegal to replace some emission components with non OEM so once the OEM support is gone it’s illegal to repair. Stop the insanity as someone used to say."

Without seeing the specifics that's an overcharged assertion. If something meets OEM specs for the specified use/vehicle then it's legal. I don't see how any court could find otherwise.
 
   / Another confused first timer #295  
You can provide access to information AND be kept from changing things that ought not be changed. I see no problem with this: VCDS, which is an aftermarket diagnostic tool for VAG (Volkswagon Automative Group), allows you to check lots of things, adjust some, and disallows modifications to others. I believe that owners should at least be able to know what the computer believes is problematic as this could point to something simple. And herein lies the problem with such tools- they give you something to go by but they're not going to tell you for certain what is wrong.

"Emission rules even make it illegal to replace some emission components with non OEM so once the OEM support is gone it’s illegal to repair. Stop the insanity as someone used to say."

Without seeing the specifics that's an overcharged assertion. If something meets OEM specs for the specified use/vehicle then it's legal. I don't see how any court could find otherwise.

A lot of this hasn't been challenged in the courts. If "Right to Repair" becomes a popular movement then it will be, and probably big business will lose their right to dictage to the common person what they can do.

But until them, we are still at the mercy of big business and their political and profit policies. They have figured out a way to exclude the little people.

Please support "Right to Repair". You don't have to repair things, but at least let people have the right to do so. At the same time, we can figure out what eco-restriants make sense & which are pure politics.

rScotty
 
   / Another confused first timer #296  
You can provide access to information AND be kept from changing things that ought not be changed. I see no problem with this: VCDS, which is an aftermarket diagnostic tool for VAG (Volkswagon Automative Group), allows you to check lots of things, adjust some, and disallows modifications to others. I believe that owners should at least be able to know what the computer believes is problematic as this could point to something simple. And herein lies the problem with such tools- they give you something to go by but they're not going to tell you for certain what is wrong.

"Emission rules even make it illegal to replace some emission components with non OEM so once the OEM support is gone it’s illegal to repair. Stop the insanity as someone used to say."

Without seeing the specifics that's an overcharged assertion. If something meets OEM specs for the specified use/vehicle then it's legal. I don't see how any court could find otherwise.

It certainly is possible to only lock out certain functions but it is in the OEMs best interest to restrict access as much as possible and the epa regulations give them an excuse that the government is happy to go along with.

There are a number of aftermarket tuning tools available for various brands but they are developed without the support and against the wishes of the OEMs - classified as reverse engineering. They are either skirting or in outright violation of epa regs depending on the parameters they can access. One of the most popular of these tools is Forscan which comes out of Russia where the epa cannot get at them.

I work for a major OEM at a high level so I see both sides but I firmly believe in right to repair for environmental and moral reasons and even to support the progress of technology. Many of our great advancements in the 20th century came from people tinkering, not from OEMs who have an financial interest in running existing technology as long as the market allows.

There are many people at high levels who believe no one but OEMs or at least certified mechanics should be allowed to do any repairs on a vehicle. Sounds nice and safe but think about the consequences for average joe.
 
   / Another confused first timer #297  
It certainly is possible to only lock out certain functions but it is in the OEMs best interest to restrict access as much as possible and the epa regulations give them an excuse that the government is happy to go along with.

There are a number of aftermarket tuning tools available for various brands but they are developed without the support and against the wishes of the OEMs - classified as reverse engineering. They are either skirting or in outright violation of epa regs depending on the parameters they can access. One of the most popular of these tools is Forscan which comes out of Russia where the epa cannot get at them.

I work for a major OEM at a high level so I see both sides but I firmly believe in right to repair for environmental and moral reasons and even to support the progress of technology. Many of our great advancements in the 20th century came from people tinkering, not from OEMs who have an financial interest in running existing technology as long as the market allows.

There are many people at high levels who believe no one but OEMs or at least certified mechanics should be allowed to do any repairs on a vehicle. Sounds nice and safe but think about the consequences for average joe.
I get it that some/man/most are wanting to maximize their profits, but, as they say, unless you can demonstrate in a court of law it's just conjecture.

I'm as cynical as they come, but I don't allow that mindset to overwhelm all other cranial functions.

I am the ONLY person allowed to work on my wife's car. Yeah, I completely GET that there are reasons to work on things that one OWNS (though, more and more, and I believe that's the bigger push- leasing, which then pretty much eliminates a non-owner on working on stuff).

Oh yeah, I am aware of some far more sinister stuff that's going on. While I appreciate folks pushing back on some things, there are larger things that will be overarching such that all the smaller stuff that we're tussling over will be swept up. Don't get me wrong that I don't care, it's just that a full perspective is what's needed- sadly, we're wiping up spilled milk while the entire house burns down.

Spoiler alert: it all ain't going to come out well.
 
   / Another confused first timer #298  
SNIP

Oh yeah, I am aware of some far more sinister stuff that's going on. While I appreciate folks pushing back on some things, there are larger things that will be overarching such that all the smaller stuff that we're tussling over will be swept up. Don't get me wrong that I don't care, it's just that a full perspective is what's needed- sadly, we're wiping up spilled milk while the entire house burns down.

I've been wondering when people would stop putting all of their effort into reducing the things we haven't been able to change. Like atmospheric change... and at least begin to put some effort into reducing the inevitable results - like flooding of coastal cities, inland weather extremes, & changes in growing crops - that now seem like they will be a part of our future.

We've missed the early train. Might still be time to catch the next one....
rScotty
 
   / Another confused first timer #299  
There are many people at high levels who believe no one but OEMs or at least certified mechanics should be allowed to do any repairs on a vehicle. Sounds nice and safe but think about the consequences for average joe.
And I would say those are the people that stand to profit from that type of thinking to.
 
   / Another confused first timer #300  
I've been wondering when people would stop putting all of their effort into reducing the things we haven't been able to change. Like atmospheric change... and at least begin to put some effort into reducing the inevitable results - like flooding of coastal cities, inland weather extremes, & changes in growing crops - that now seem like they will be a part of our future.

We've missed the early train. Might still be time to catch the next one....
rScotty
Sadly, some of the things we haven't been able to change are due to self-protection of/by the System (and ruling oligarchy). But, I agree that it makes sense to start thinking about Plan B. Draconian measures are going to come whether we want them or not: if not imposed from/through others, then via Nature. Food, Shelter Water.
 
 
Top