Another insulation thread - HELP - sorry :-)

[ITHINKICAN]

60x40x16 metal building - primary intention is for hanging out, minor repair to dirt bikes/atvs, storage when we leave... ultimately hope to have a tv room, bathroom, bedroom and maybe a small kitchen.

The building manufacturer wants approx $900 for their 3" R10 insulation on the ceiling (2400 sq ft) and approx $1900 for the same 3" R10 insulation for ceiling + walls (6000 sq ft). The builder wants .30 to install psf. I might be able to convince him to install for free - which is part of the reason for this thread - need to decide on this before I agree on the price(s)>

Part of me wants to do the ceiling only - I'm thinking 1.) It would be nearly impossible to climb up there and do it later down the road - 2.) It should lessen the echo inside - 3.) It better slow the heat from the sun. The builder says it is a waste of money - pain in the butt to install and could potentially get wet and fall apart. I've never owned a metal building before - if this was my house I would do TechShield or another radiant barrier and then the average/norm for our area with the insulation...

It is blistering hot in Houston for 6+ months each year. I am pretty sure I would want at the least a radiant barrier? I guess I need to worry about vapor barrier too - though I don't know much about it.

Can someone PLEASE help me decide. I'm tired of toying with the idea in my head - it is the last piece of unfinished business before I pull the trigger on the contract... I know I can decide in the next few weeks... but I'd rather put the whole 'building decision' thing to rest so I can rest my mind and focus on cool stuff like the upcoming Holidays!

Pros vs Cons. Anyone! :confused2:

 

[forgeblast]

what about looking into the reflective bubble insulation farmtek has it. or the spray in foam stuff.

 

[ITHINKICAN]

Thank you for the reply. I was wondering about that myself.

Do you happen to have any experience with bubble wrap or foil?

It is approx $2,100 for bubble wrap and approx $847 for foil.

 

[ustmd]

Not sure if this is going to help, but here are a few thoughts.

Background:

I am up near Austin, so I hear you about the sun. Also, we have a metal barn about the same size as you are getting built. Ours was built by the previous owner of the property in 2000 (he did it himself, with his own designs). The previous/owner builder put the radiant barrier/bubble wrap on the underside of the roof, but no other insulation.

Observations:

1. Not sure if the radiant barrier makes a significant enough difference in high summer to be worth it. During the summer, the interior of the barn is close to the ambient shade temp--if it is 103 in shade outside the barn, it is 99-103 in the barn. I am not sure if is due to the fact of no insulation on the walls, dust build up on the radiant barrier, incorrect installation (though it looks like it is installed correct (drooping down 8-12 inches) or poor product.

Note to 1: the barrier does make a difference in the winter--if we close all of the doors/windows and with 3 horses in stalls, it is not bad.

2. When the humidity is up and there is a large temperature swing between nighttime and daytime temps, the builing sweats like a pig due to condensation. If we had any type of fiberglass insulation, it would be ruined by now--even if it was the special vinyl wrapped insulation for metal buildings.

3 Granted we use our building as a horse barn, but we are perputually fighting back vermin who have taken up residence in the insulation (as a matter of fact I am getting ready to go on another jihad against them). Even without a local food source, the easily accessible insulation provides a great habitat.


Given these three, I have been toying with the idea of pulling out all of the bubble wrap radiant barrier and replacing it either with spray foam (no radiant protection) or a radiant barrier paint (no thermal insulation).

You mentioned about adding a some living spaces to the building. I think you might be better served by building a conditioned space with the metal building (i.e. a room within the building) that you insulate and then heat/cool appropriately

 

[ITHINKICAN]

Thank you. Your info is on target with what I am hearing - a lot of similar experiences - unfortunately.

ecoslik made a helpful post on my door thread - so I just called a spray foam company - $5,000 for 1" of foam. Ouch! :mur:

I wish someone would just come forward and say "I live in Houston. You can install XYZ insulation - it will cost approx $1,000 - it will give you 15-20 yrs of incredible radiant protection and excellent insulation & you won't have any problems with any condensation or any vermin."

I guess I'd have to build our metal building in a different climate/state - if I wanted it to be comfortable in the heat of the summer.

Radiant barrier paint - hmmm - I will have to do some research on that next...

 

[travis potter]

Just a question but isn't the metal roof the same as a radient barrier? I hope to show photoes of my shop some day it is all metal no insulation and with both north and south doors open i get a good wind .If I leave the doors open all the time the shop stays cooler until the afternoon heats it up.

 

[DaveOmak]

My hephew has a 60x100 all steel w/concrete floor in Colorado.
Everything from the concrete up is spray foamed. Trusses, perlins, conduit, everything.
The foam stops condensation dripping on his tools/equip etc. Stops the pounding drum like noise from the rain. cooler in the summer. Warmer in the winter. No echo.

We stopped in his place, a few years back, during a tornado. The tornado missed all his stuff.
There were a few of his friends waiting to greet us, which was very nice. We parked my truck and camper in the building and started to have a welcome party.
Back to the point. During the rain and wind it was fairly noisy, but without the foam I think the noise would have been unbearable, not to mention the wind driven rain coming through the seams of the metal clading. If memory serves me right, I think it rained 3" in one hour with about 40+ mph winds. I was really impressed with the protection the foam afforded. It probably helped keep the panels together also.
I have seen "bat type" insul in similar buildings. I'm not impressed. It needs to have sheeting over it to make it complete.
Consider the cost of bats w/sheeting and consider foam. His foam was sprayed white for light reflectance.
Wish I had his shop.
If you spray, be sure of the fire rating. There are products to be wary of on the market today.
Tough decision. Dave

 

[ITHINKICAN]

Thank you for the thoughts. Everyones helpful input & experiences caused me to think it through (which is what I needed) - if I were to order insulation from the metal building company at a cost of approx $1,900 & pay the installer his bid $.30 psf @ approx 5,800 sf = approx $1,750 the total would be in the range of $3,650. I'd end up with entry level R value (they claim R10), a potentially wet substance that may fall apart over time & have a potential haven for vermin... I'd hate to spend $3k+ and end up with something that isn't awesome. This morning there was similar sentiment. I'd like to be insulated from the get go but if I compare those possibilities to spray foam which will seal the building for approx $5,000 - the spray foam isn't sounding too bad at this point.

It looks like I should put the insulation on the back burner and address the issue down the road... cool. Today might be the big day! Thank you for all the assistance!! :thumbsup:

 

[eepete]

ustmd: I had spray foam put on the bubble wrap/aluminized foil on the ceiling, no problems so you probably don't need to take it out. You could shoot a section of ceiling 1st, then do the walls, and go back to the ceiling after 10 minutes or so and see how hard it is to tear it off. I suspect that there will be enough purlins visible that the foam will have no problems staying put. It will also stick to the bubble wrap, it's just the wood is more porous on the surface and it sticks even better there.

ITHINKICAN: A 1" foam sounds funny. It would be really hard to spray it on that thin. It expands up quite a bit. And in the corners and the tops/bottoms, the sprayer has to either slow down or reverse direction and it's even harder. An average of 2" would sound like a more typical minimum install. At about 3", any easy one pass spray, you've got R13.

I have a post:
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/projects/170259-my-30-x-40-tractor.html

Posts 12 and 13 deal with the foam insulation. Post 21 has costs- it was $3,100 for the insulation. $3K and I spent another $100 on plastic and some other stuff.

Pete

 

[tungularafishcamp]

Going with white or maybe even silver metal should keep it cooler alone. I am putting up one right now and would spray foam the whole thing if I could afford to just gonna foam the tool storage area for now.
Rick

 

[Iplayfarmer]

DaveOmak brought up a good point about the added cost of sheating. I was just pricing OSB yesterday... $11.47/sheet for 19/32" at Home Depot. If you did the whole 16' height, the cost will be about $1,000. That brings you within a few hundred dollars of your quote for spray foam.

I've worked in a food plant where they had spray foam on the walls in the storage areas. It's good insulation. Not only does it insulate, but it seals up any cracks and crevises too. The stuff I worked around had a top coat of a thick epoxy type paint on it to make it less porous and more durable.

You may also call around a bit and see what different quotes you can get.

 

[brownsl]

I am getting a 32x52x12 garage built starting next week. I will be going with sprayed foam insulation but have not priced it out yet. Something to consider though is the thickness. I have a friend that built a barn and lives in it. He used spray foam for insulation. The company gave him a quote for 6" thickness, out to the posts. Instead he told him he wanted it only 4" and not to trim it. So they sprayed it for 4" thick but it fully expanded to 6" since they did not trim it. If he would have got 6" thickness they would have trimmed it at 6". So he got 6" but paid for only 4". Uncovered it does not look as nice but if you cover it up with OSB who cares. This is what I plan on trying to do.

 

[ITHINKICAN]

Edit - I started another thread instead.

Thank you!

 

[ecoslik]

Yes, the foam will seal out the water. I have some neat stories about it working very well to seal out water.

Open cell foam and closed cell foam have different R values. Open cell is less expensive and will expand more than an equal fluid volume of closed cell foam; thus, it takes less product for the vendor to achive the thickness that they have promised. Importantly, closed cell foam is more durable (surface rigidity/hardness) so that when exposed in a metal building versus fully enclosed in a wall cavity, the extra durability/hardness helps keep it intact when bumped or rubbed ... and certainly keeps out more bugs and dust.

 

[ITHINKICAN]

I was moving the post while you were typing - sorry!