Antifreeze- is any type OK?

fieldserviceengineer · Mar 13, 2009

frankc said:
FleetServiceEngineer THANKS FOR THE INPUT.

Can I ask a question like this?

This is the product I wish to use:
Fleet Charge Antifreeze

I would like to use this in:

Kubota Diesel engines from 2 cylinder thru 4 cylinder (5 different engines)
Volkswagen Diesel TDI engine 2004 model year.
Ford (International) Powerstroke year 2000
Case Diesel 580K engine.

1) What would your opinion be?
2) This antifreeze is PURPLE, would other regular Green std/low silicate antifreezes mix with it in a pinch?
3) Would I be able to use the Ford SCA additive fw-16 to supplement this as required by test strip results?
4) What would the correct test strips be? Certain Manufacturer????

I've read everything in this post and appreciate all the material supplied, but after all the discussion, I'd still like someone to answer these 4 questions.

thanks

Frank

Fleet Charge will be fine. It can be mixed with any coolant. Green low silicate like Shellzone is no problem BUT you will need to test the coolant for supplemental coolant additive level and maintain at about 2400 PPM of nitrite using the Penray test strips or at 2.4 units per gallon if you use the Fleetguard CC2602 test kit. Sure, you can use Ford FW-16 (actually it is Fleetguard DCA4). If you use the FW16 the CC2602 test strips will give a more accurate answer on the chemical additive since it is made of nitrite and molybdate. The Fleetguard test strips measure both additives to arrive at the SCA units per gallon answer. I am assuming you would not need to test much so do not buy their CC2602 package of 50. Instead get the CC2602A four pack of individual wrapped strips and reference card.

frankc · Mar 17, 2009

THANK YOU. I know exactly what I need to do now!

Donavon · Oct 17, 2009

Fieldservicengineer, great write up. Thank you!!

horses2 · Oct 23, 2009

being in the auto/hd truck biz for my career, Fieldserviceengineer is right on the mark. Simply put, for Diesel engines, just use an ELC that meets the Cat standard and protect your engine. You can get Zerex HD ELC at any NAPA store. My local NAPA orderd a case for me late in the afternoon and had it the next morning. I use it on my NH tractors and 7.3 Powerstroke. You do have to do a COMPLETE FLUSH. The benefit to a quality ELC is no checking SCA additives, and at the prescibed interval, you can add the extender and keep on going.
I paid $16/gal for Zerex HD ELC, and it will be cheaper in the long run.

fieldserviceengineer · Oct 26, 2009

horses2 said:
The benefit to a quality ELC is no checking SCA additives, and at the prescibed interval, you can add the extender and keep on going.

I would not recommend 'not testing the SCA level'. If you use the Zerex product or similar OAT coolant, it will still rely mostly on the nitrite and molybdate additive for cavitation pitting protection. All of the OAT coolants like Zerex such as CAT ELC, Shell Rotella ELC, Chevron Delo ELC are in the same category as they all use the same organic acid inhibitor but rely heavily on the conventional inhibitors nitrite and molybdate. If they are consumed as they will be by engine operation, you will be left with a coolant that would then be much more like Dexcool. Dexcool has very low cavitation pitting protection. If you want an OAT coolant that has pitting protection from the OAT additives, then you need Old World Final Charge. However, it cannot be easily tested. Using it requires careful attention to what the system is refilled with if coolant levels get low. Another very similar OAT coolant (Final Charge) is Fleetguard ES Optimax. It is Final Charge with the addition of nitrite, molybdate and a quality scale inhibitor. Most OAT coolants do not have sufficient scale inhibitor additives and do experience scale formation on hot surfaces in the engine cylinder heads and upper cylinder regions..

Soundguy · Oct 26, 2009

This very issue is why I like regualr approved coolant, plus the addative that CNH sells.. FP15 I believe is the electrolysis/cavitation modifier.. that and swizzle test strips.

soundguy

Matt_Jr · Nov 21, 2009

Just an FYI, don't ever use plain tap water with the long life coolants unless it says you can on the jug of antifreeze. The additive package contains organic acid technology that "attack salt and calcium", and will die if any chlorinated water is added to the system.

Matt_Jr · Nov 21, 2009

Oh, another thing. Don't ever do radiator drain and fills either. When the additive package in antifreeze wears out, it becomes part of the salt and calcium buildup in the bottom of your radiator, engine block, and scale everywhere in between. If you just add new coolant, the additives just "attack" the old build up in the radiator, block, and scale, then are not suspended in the coolant any more and become part of the same problem. Reverse flushing with chemical flush kit is the only way to go. It goes against the scale, breaking it down and suspending it, allowing it to be flushed out.

Soundguy · Nov 22, 2009

Matt_Jr said:
Just an FYI, don't ever use plain tap water with the long life coolants unless it says you can on the jug of antifreeze. The additive package contains organic acid technology that "attack salt and calcium", and will die if any chlorinated water is added to the system.

sounds like city-folk talk... not all 'tap' water is chlorinated..

soundguy

Matt_Jr · Nov 22, 2009

Right on Soundguy. That was city talk. My bad

.

fieldserviceengineer · Nov 30, 2009

Matt_Jr said:
Oh, another thing. Don't ever do radiator drain and fills either. When the additive package in antifreeze wears out, it becomes part of the salt and calcium buildup in the bottom of your radiator, engine block, and scale everywhere in between. If you just add new coolant, the additives just "attack" the old build up in the radiator, block, and scale, then are not suspended in the coolant any more and become part of the same problem. Reverse flushing with chemical flush kit is the only way to go. It goes against the scale, breaking it down and suspending it, allowing it to be flushed out.

Actually what happens is that as antifreeze ages from heating cycles it becomes acidic. Combined with additive precipitation such as silicate additives found in LD auto antifreeze which will fall out of solution especially when the coolant pH gets down to less than 8.0 pH, thus a form of sludge accumulates in the bottom of the water jacket where coolant flow is much less turbulent. It settles there allowing the acidic sludge to corrode and rust the freeze (core) plugs. When they show signs of coolant leakage such as a crystalline deposit or dampness associated with coolant leakage, replace all the plugs not just the one. While all are removed use a garden hose to wash the lower end of the cylinder block and you may need to physically break up this gelled sludge as well. Replace the plugs then flush the engine with a two part powdered acid/alkaline cooling system flush such as Prestone manufacturers. Follow their instructions carefully. Failure to do so may result in the system being left in an acid or alkaline state instead of neutral.

As for "salt" the term is actually derived from the coolant additives which in dry or powder form are referred to as "salts" but not actually sodium chloride salt. Sodium silicate, sodium nitrite, sodium molybdate, sodium borate, potassium phosphate are examples of such inorganic salts used in coolant additive chemistry. These salts with the exception of sodium silicate are classified as "super soluble" meaning they dissolve readily and are very resistant to dropping out of solution (precipitation). However, sodium silicate does not enjoy such a reputation. It can be easily forced out of solution. Even coolant concentrate with silicate can have the silicate additive precipitate while still in the jug! It forms a white gel that is quite solid. Once formed is very resistant to redissolving, certainly not with anything less than the strong agitation that a water pump impeller can impart.

The good news is that the addition of new coolant to an old system does not chemically attack the old additives and cause problems. Depending on your coolant formulation and premix solution, there should be little to be concerned with in adding coolant to a low system. I do agree that just draining and refilling with new coolant without benefit of flushing is a bit of a wasted effort.

Scale formation in an engine is due to use of hard water when making coolant premix. Scale has to be chemically removed by use of strong acid flushing agents or use of chelating cleaners formulated to remove scale. Scale can not be easily removed especially not by flushing with water.

Here is a simple coolant maintenance program for diesel tractors (but can include your diesel pickup):
1. Start clean. Flush the system with a chemical cleaner following manufacturer's instructions. Do not take short cuts on this.
2. Fill the system with a 50/50 premix unless your climate dictates a 60% antifreeze/ 40% water solution (-64*F F.P.). Use premix coolant that has the necessary diesel cavitation protection chemistry already added. You may add it yourself as you make the premix coolant solution.
3. A good target nitrite content is 2000 - 2400 PPM nitrite. Use a test strip to determine that. Or use Fleetguard DCA4 liquid at 6.5 ounces per gallon of premix.
4. Whenever the system is low, use the same coolant mix you filled with or one that is chemically similar. Meaning: the color can be different but the amount of glycol/water should be 50/50 if that is what you started with. The additive chemistry should be mixed at the same rate as when doing the first fill.
5. Test with test strips at least twice yearly if you only put on a few hundred hours of operation each year (season).
6. Properly mixed/formulated coolant with this maintenance will last for up to 5 years of operation assuming you can put on 2000 hours of operation. Coolant has a lot longer life when properly maintained than what the OAT coolant manufacturers want you to believe so that you will buy OAT to get "long life".

Matt_Jr · Nov 30, 2009

Fieldserviceengineer, thank you for the excellent posts. Something that I thought was a simple thing (antifreeze) seems more complex than Einstein's theory of relativity.

I went to a couple 3 hour classes on antifreezes, oils, and fuel(reformulated) a few weeks ago, put together by BG. It was very informitive. A lot of what you have written was mentioned by the instructor giving the class. He said there was a lot more that he would like to go over, but... well, how much can you really teach someone in just 6 hours. One of the points he made though, was that 90% of the problems on todays cars, trucks, etc.. are caused by chemical reactions. And the best way to fight chemical reactions was with chemistry. Heck, I have to hit the search engines when I want to know which wheel bearing greases I can mix. It's funny how the engineers building the motors get all the praise. Glad to have guys that help them last long too.

Wyatts dad · Jul 18, 2010

i am glad i read this thread, guess my prestone is going back to autozone, and i will be going by the equip co to figure out what they have for AF. does anybody have a good, effective and simple method of flushing? i am in the middle of going thru my kubota tg-1860, 3cyl diesel, i hate to rip the hoses apart just to flush it, they look real good, but i bet they would not come off without a fight.

Gale Hawkins · Jul 18, 2010

We have mostly older stuff so we use the old green style in everything. I like to use the Prestone Cleaner (not the Flush) for about 6 hours of total run time with three well water flushes before and afterwards before putting in the new antifreeze.

Willl · Jul 19, 2010

Gale Hawkins said:
so we use the old green style in everything.

Diesel engine specs ?

Gale Hawkins · Jul 19, 2010

Willl said:
Diesel engine specs ?

Good question that needs an answer. :thumbsup:

irvingj · Jul 19, 2010

For those who may be interested-- there's a concise, informative article in the current edition of Popular Mechanics that discusses anti-freeze types, diffferences, applications, etc.

It's in the "Car Clinic" section, p. 95.

Wyatts dad · Jul 20, 2010

i was trying to get some other flush ideas relative to the great info provided by (Fieldserviceengineer) from above.
Actually what happens is that as antifreeze ages from heating cycles it becomes acidic. Combined with additive precipitation such as silicate additives found in LD auto antifreeze which will fall out of solution especially when the coolant pH gets down to less than 8.0 pH, thus a form of sludge accumulates in the bottom of the water jacket where coolant flow is much less turbulent. It settles there allowing the acidic sludge to corrode and rust the freeze (core) plugs. When they show signs of coolant leakage such as a crystalline deposit or dampness associated with coolant leakage, replace all the plugs not just the one. While all are removed use a garden hose to wash the lower end of the cylinder block and you may need to physically break up this gelled sludge as well. Replace the plugs then flush the engine with a two part powdered acid/alkaline cooling system flush such as Prestone manufacturers. Follow their instructions carefully. Failure to do so may result in the system being left in an acid or alkaline state instead of neutral.

After returning the prestone to autozone i went to the kubota dealer hoping for a good outcome. I picked up a jug of Fleetguard as noted above, as expected the guys at the Kubota dealer looked at me like I had 3 heads saying they never flush and only change AF at customer insistence, when it looks dirty or shows signs of oil. I Stopped listening to them yahoos right there. Went by the CNH store and met some real good fellas. They said not to use the packaged flush, their routine was to drain system completly, mix cascade dishwasher soap in a bucket of very warm water, pour it in with the motor running, then drain and run clear water thru it. I intend upon using distilled for a final clear rinse and then put the FG AF in. Funny thing, the test strips and that part of the maintenance process from above was for the most part not known at either shop.

I guess the most important question I have if anybody know much about the Kubota 3cyl diesel, are their bores wet sleeves? i will use the correct AF anyway, would be nice to know what I am dealing with.

thanks

fieldserviceengineer · Jul 20, 2010

Wyatts Dad,

Flushing with Cascade dish washer detergent powder is for removing lube oil and fuel contamination. For general cooling system flushing to remove rust and scale you are wasting your time. Use the Prestone two part cleaner. Fleetguard Restore Plus is very effective (costly too) but the Prestone is very effective at removal of rust and scale. If you are not having any issues with oil, fuel or indications of rust or scale formations, then simple draining and flushing with plain tap water is quite sufficient. Flushing with distilled water is a waste of time for the short time it will be in use. Distilled is fine when mixing engine coolant which will be in for the long haul. If you have any further questions you can contact me at 800-223-4583, follow the menu commands to Technical Assistance and ask for Gary Spires at ext. 9418. Should you end up with Customer assistance, ask for me at the same number.