Any dog breeders amongst us?

Bob_Skurka · Nov 25, 2004

( ( There's already too many pure breds in the pound. )

Which begs my question, what do good, reputable, responsible dog breeders do with the puppies that don't meet the "standards"? I'm sure not every puppy in the litter meets the AKC's rigid standards.
)

The sad fact is that every dog in a litter can be AKC registered if the parents of both dogs have been registered. AKC registration, in my mind, is meaningless. People think that their dog is an AKC registered dog so therefore it is special. All it means, and in means nothing else, is that the dog is a purebred of a recognized breed. It, however, does not mean that the dog is a quality animal, it does not mean that the dog meets breed standards, it does not mean the dog has not been bred to be of good temperment, or anything else. Honestly, AKC registration is virtually meaningless.

We buy only from show breeders, and then only from successful show breeders. And we only buy pups (of large breeds) who's parents have been OFA certified as good or better for their hips. And we only buy from breeders who other breeders recommend.

I can buy a car and if it gives me trouble then I can sell it. But when I buy a dog I am really adopting a child and bringing him/her into my family. That animal gets part of my heart and I hope to earn part is his/hers. So if I buy a dog that genetically is predisposed to hip displaysia then I am buying heartache for me (and future medical bills, and serious pain for the dog). If I support only quality breeders who won't even breed with a substandard animal, or one with a history or bloodline that has health issues, then I am helping maintain a quality animal and quality breed.

 it's egotistical to presume that a potential breeder would be irresponsible simply because he isn't showing his dogs in competitions. 
 I believe it is greed that drives people to breed dogs that are not shown because if someone breeds and doesn't show, then they have no real vested interest in maintaining the breed standard.

 The most rediculous thing was, he still wanted to charge for the puppy as if it's pedigree was really an issue since he was requiring it to be sterilized, even though it was a "cull". 95% of the people who are looking for a good pet don't give a tinkers dam about pedigree, confirmation, or whether the dog will hold still while they blow dry it and tie little bows on it's ears. 

I fall into the 95% of the people who just want a good pet, I don't care that my dogs dad is grand champion of whatever, I care that my pet is healthy. BUT the way the AKC registration works, if my dog is the runt that should be culled, and my breeder does not require me to spay/neuter the animal, then I can go breed him with someone elses dog and that grand champion lineage is now a "selling point" that will raise the price of the puppies I sell. Consequently every breeder I've ever talked with REQUIRES that either you show the dog competitively (at which point you pay for a show quality dog) or you spay/neuter the dog and buy a "pet quality" animal that is not up to breed confirmation for show purposes.

I'm glad your Yorkie is a great little dog, I hope that he is and remains healthy, but you should probably consider yourself lucky. And your experience with AKC registration proves my point that it is meaningless.

brad_oatley · Nov 25, 2004

"I admit that personally, I think there are too many pure-bred Goldens killed every year to even consider setting up another breeding program. There are more Goldens than homes for them already. "
We had the opposite experience. After our Golden passed, we searched for an adult Golden or even a pup from a rescue or any other place looking to give an unwanted Golden a great home and life. NO luck at all. The "rescues" were arrogant, rude, or uncommunicative. The pounds don't care whether a dog finds a home. The Wardens don't care. It was a disheartening experience.

Cliff_Johns · Nov 25, 2004

( . . . In my opinion, it's egotistical to presume that a potential breeder would be irresponsible simply because he isn't showing his dogs in competitions. . . . . )

I'm not sure it's "egotistical," but the original post was asking about breeding goldens and maybe breaking even. The point, I think, was that even to break even you have to show your dogs. This is the only way to charge enough to cover the costs. A back-yard breeder isn't going to come close to covering costs if he's doing it right.

Cliff

Freds · Nov 25, 2004

I really like most of the responses to the original post. Just a few days ago I was trying to educate a similar post on CBN from someone that had a small female and was looking for a male to breed to so she could see what colors the puppies would be. She didn't plan on showing, only selling pets.
Sure could have used you guys then...

Anyway, let me answer this also:

( Which begs my question, what do good, reputable, responsible dog breeders do with the puppies that don't meet the "standards"? I'm sure not every puppy in the litter meets the AKC's rigid standards. )

A breeder like you describe, Slydog, will sell the puppy like the one you didn't purchase. They will sell the dog with a spay/neuter clause that will allow them to hold the registration papers until you show proof of having done the appropriate operation. If you aren't going to breed then you don't need the papers if keeping the dog unaltered means that much to you. This puppy will also be sold at "pet quality" prices, not as much as one they think has potential to be a champion of sorts.
An altered dog can still compete in many recognized events, but not conformation events.

By purchasing one of these pet quality dogs from a good breeder, you are hoping that at least the health is going to be good, or at least have a better chance of not having hereditary defects and you are also hoping that the temperment of the dog is going to be like the breed's temperment is supposed to be. Unfortunately, not all show breeders care about temperment and not all working dog people care about conformation, but at least you know what you are getting into. Not like picking a puppy out of the classified from someone that has a female that knows someone with a male, so they mated them.
There has been good dogs gotten that way and even more that ended up as rescues or put down due to health or temperment issues.

I know a woman in Indiana that won't board Golden Retrievers anymore because she said: in 30 years of boarding she has only been bitten twice and they were both GRs. I boarded one myself from TX that was the worse, or should I say, the *best* fence fighter I have boarded in over two years in business. Teeth popping, spit flying, launching himself at the fencing. It was a week before he accepted me and we could go out for walks.
A few months later I got a call (when I was full) from another kennel that wanted me to take him off their hands because they knew he was alright with me. This dog just didn't like new people or situations and his owners knew it.
*Very typical Golden * /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
There is only so much environment you can imprint to a dog and the rest has to be genetics, something you don't get on a consistent basis from non-qualified breeders.

BTW, I'm no big fan of AKC either, Bob.

Cliff_Johns · Nov 25, 2004

( . . . The "rescues" were arrogant, rude, or uncommunicative. The pounds don't care whether a dog finds a home. The Wardens don't care. It was a disheartening experience. )

This is the sad truth sometimes. The volunteer shelter workers get burned out, and the pound workers are usually paid very little and aren't necessarily interested in the welfare of the animals.

Still, I believe it's worth the effort to find the right organization, and thus the right dog. It's important to remember that it's not the dog's fault that the people who are there to help them don't always do what's needed.

Cliff

gsxr1100 · Nov 25, 2004

Brad as you noted " . . . The "rescues" were arrogant, rude, or uncommunicative. The pounds don't care whether a dog finds a home. The Wardens don't care. It was a disheartening experience. )"..

BINGO! That was one reason why my wife stopped doing Rottie Rescue for NERR. The people that all do it think they know it all, dogs are #2 and political is #1 and full of you know what. After 8+ years she said bye bye.

The rescue's are in it for "there" kind of dogs and they will bad mouth others. Example, my wife also did Pitbull rescue and the NERR people hates pits. Gee, all the dogs need homes. A dog is a dog.Blame the deed not the breed.

Most people have better luck at the shelters but most times the people that work there are clueless on how to handle dogs. We I would go withthe wife to eval the shelter pits of rotties we would watch young kids go up to the cages and stick there hands in! Unreal and where is their parents. If the dog bits the kidit is the dogs fault.

We had 2 rotties and 2 shepards. All died /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif..Now we have 1 rottie and 2 pits....Every dog was a rescue or shelter dog. One pit i even got his K9 Good Citizen...He jsut needs something to do....

I need to stop talking about this since animals without homes gets me going.... and people think oil or walmart debates gets me going..... Try homes pets....Sorry about the rant. I just have seen WAY to many dogs get put down over dumb reasons.

jpr62902 · Nov 25, 2004

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone! I'm replying to Ken's post to offer a breeder's perspective.

I can appreciate that a buyer doesn't want to be told what to do with their puppy. I was originally rejected by the breeder from whom we got our first Ridgeback essentially because I was an arrogant a$$. I know now what she was trying to make sure her puppy was going to a good home -- one that would fit the needs of a Ridgeback. Please understand that the breeder, in requiring that the puppy be spayed or neutered, is merely trying to be responsible in assuring that dogs that don't meet the breed standard do not reproduce.

Now, if you're looking for a specific breed, you are concerned about pedigree. If you weren't, a mutt from the pound (or any mutt, for that matter) would do. The fact of the matter is, certain breeds have different personalities and physical needs which may or may not fit your family and\or home. That's why you look for a specific breed.

Conformation titles are not just beauty contests. They make sure that enough "experts" view that dog as a good exemplar of that breed -- considering bone structure, gait, color, etc. Yes, AKC registration only assures that the dog came from two purebred parents and nothing else. It's only the first step from which many others follow to assure as much as possible that you're getting a good dog representative of the breed, and there's still no guarantee.

True, a responsible "backyard breeder" could provide a good animal, but you're relying soley on that person's reputation and representations versus the backing of a number of AKC judges to assure that your dog is of good "stock." To acquire this backing, a breeder must go through a great deal of time and expense, and I assure you, we are not in it for the $$$ (I'd be bankrupt if we were) and it's not a matter of arrogance, but one of responsibility.

Again, this response is not intended to be hostile, merely to provide a breeder's perspective.

eee · Nov 26, 2004

( My wife has competed with German Shepherds for years in a sport called Schutzhund )

You and your wife have any DDR's GSD's ?

eee · Nov 26, 2004

Mark,
I agree with everything you say.You need to be careful in what you do. I am not an expert on GSD dogs but I know a little and the American lines have lot a lot of the true qualities of the original GSD,some of the American lines have been bred for show and do not have the temperment for good personal protection dogs.

FL_Cracker · Nov 26, 2004

Not sure about the details but we purchased our dog from a breader in Orlando, FL who had about 20 acres of land but the dog operation was very small, about 12-15 kennels. He ran what I thought was a very clean an friendly operation. He was not pushing the registered show dog concept but rather a good friend and pet.

He was raising Jack Russells. It's our first JR but what a great dog. We even talked our son into getting one of "Skipper" half brothers. These little Jacks are GREAT GREAT GREAT dogs, and so friendly.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you do go forward with breeding think about Jack Russells.

By the way we did register him with the JRTCA but that document is in the file drawer and doesn't change everday life much at all.

See attached picture of "Skipper" Squirell Hunting and snoozing on the boat. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif