Any members into solar enegery

[Budweiser John]

Several weeks ago my wife and I attended a local Home and builders show and struck up a conversation with a guy representing a local solar enegery co. His pitch was quite interesting and included tax savings, enegery savings and increased property values. Bottom line, we agreed to an on-site (farm) evaluation and proposal.

The guy is scheduled to come out next week and make the formal presentation. Although familiar with electricity and it痴 distribution, I know nothing about solar enegery production. As far as tax concensquences we have a CPA firm we致e used for the last 30 years.
I would sincerely appreciate any member input both positive or negative on your experience with solar energy.
We are not looking to 礎e off the grid per say but claims of saving up to 50% on annual energery costs does get one痴 attention.
For those who are wondering, my location is central lower Michigan.

B. John

 

[plowhog]

Solar can be very good, but a lot of solar sales people try to talk you into leasing as that makes it an easier sale for them. Generally, leases for solar should be avoided as: a) what you are leasing is purchased at full retail instead of a negotiated price, b) the lease costs are higher than outright purchase, and c) your property will get liened by the lease company who will typically require their approval of a new buyer if you ever decide to sell.

I think solar is good but requires a LOT of homework to make a good decision.

 

[farmeratheart]

We’ve had solar panels on our roof since July of 2010. A very modest 4kW array of 20 panels. We bought the system and had it installed. We produce about 90% of our total electric use for the year on average. Using very conservative numbers for payback I figure that the system will have paid for itself in 3 more years. The solar debate has raged on TBN many times and makes for interesting reading. We love our installation and experience.

Frank

 

[teejk]

There are a lot of calculators on the internet. IMHO, solar makes sense where it makes sense. As far as I can tell central Wisconsin fails that test. Too far north.

 

[Coyote machine]

Bring whatever proposal you're given here, then we can advise you further. I have 30 collectors on my barn for electrical generation, and two domestic water solar collectors from 2009. Also have a Sonnen 16Kw battery storage system for backup electric. The power company pays me +/- 6 cents/kW hour I generate against any bill I may have with them, for 10 years. I know a fair amount about solar, and worked in designing off peak salt storage systems in the late 70's on a $1/2 million research project for the DOE.
Don't sign any contracts 'till you bring the details here first, JMHO.:thumbsup:

 

[RNeumann]

A lot depends on how the local and state utility treats the power you are giving back. If you have tiered utility rate and you continually get into say the third and higher rate brackets and your in an area with high solar yield then it may make sense.
As an example- when I was in California with crazy electrical rates and a warm/hot climate getting enough solar to keep me in the lower bracket makes sense. But now that I’m way north in Idaho it makes no sense even though I have all electric heat!!! The electric rates are low and the amount of infrastructure needed would be cost prohibitive.

Also remember panels have a life span. So the lease to own BS is basically them saying they own them until they cost more to remove or replace. I also would put them on my roof if I had any land at all. Make a carport or woodshed or something- as long as it wasn’t on my roof!

 

[EddieWalker]

If the tax incentives are there, and you have triple checked the numbers, it might be worthwhile. Most of them come from China, and China has announced a reduction in what they will spend on supplementing the production costs, which will create an increase at the retail end. They also have a limited life span, so when you calculate your savings, be sure to remember that it's only for the life of the panels, and then you either replace them, or throw them away.

When I looked into it, there was no savings to me, since the tax incentives where based on the amount I paid in interest on my home loan. Since my home and land are paid for, I don't have a right off on a mortgage to deduct the cost of the solar, or green energy costs.

 

[techman]

I installed a 40 panel, 9.2 KW solar system in the fall of '11. I shopped a bit but decided to do the install myself. I work for a company that, at the time, made solar panels, so I got a good price on them. I was also able to buy most of the major components (inverter, racking system) from a distributor who handled our panels. So I basically got most of the big ticket items for the cost to an installer. After all available local and federal tax credits I paid $ 10K out of pocket. It would have been $ 30K from a retail installer. I am happy to say that the beginning of this year I hit break-even, so my energy use reductions are money in my pocket. We have a 2800 sq-ft house, all electric, ground source heat pumps, 2 fridges plus freezer, pool plus. I paid on average $ 100/month ($1200/yr) for electric. I also collect solar energy credits from SREC Trade who auctions them to states to meet renewable mandates for energy. The credits started at about $ 75/mwh, but quickly dropped to under $ 5/mwh. They have rebounded to about $ 12/mwh recently. My total income from these credits is $ 1400 in six and a half months. The biggest benefit is that our state has "net metering" which means that I get credit for excess energy at the same price that I pay for electric. So power I have in excess of use runs the meter backwards. Some states and/or local utilities do not use net metering, so if you have excess power you either get no credit, or KWH credit at a much lower rate than you buy at. I considered a bigger system, but utility rules here treat any system over 10 KW to be a generation facility, so you do not get net metering and are paid for excess power at the current market price of generation (net rate is about $ 0.12-0.16/ kwh, generation rate about $ 0.04-0.06/ kwh).

I am very pleased with my system, but I know that the price breaks I received are not the norm for most people. One big change, however, is that my panels cost me $ 1.92/watt when I bought them and today panels are under $ 1.00/watt. That makes systems more affordable than in the past. So far no failures, no maintenance issues (panels are rain cleaned) and the only change is having to mow around the array.

I am not a fan of the current lease schemes. They can lower bills somewhat, and little to no up-front cash, but you will save more over the life of the system if you can afford to purchase. DIY saves a lot but may not be possible in some localities, so check.

paul

 

[markieb]

We’ve had solar panels on our roof since July of 2010. A very modest 4kW array of 20 panels. We bought the system and had it installed. We produce about 90% of our total electric use for the year on average. Using very conservative numbers for payback I figure that the system will have paid for itself in 3 more years. The solar debate has raged on TBN many times and makes for interesting reading. We love our installation and experience.

Frank

What size battery reserve do you have in place to store the juice?

Thanks!

 

[teejk]

I installed a 40 panel, 9.2 KW solar system in the fall of '11. I shopped a bit but decided to do the install myself. I work for a company that, at the time, made solar panels, so I got a good price on them. I was also able to buy most of the major components (inverter, racking system) from a distributor who handled our panels. So I basically got most of the big ticket items for the cost to an installer. After all available local and federal tax credits I paid $ 10K out of pocket. It would have been $ 30K from a retail installer. I am happy to say that the beginning of this year I hit break-even, so my energy use reductions are money in my pocket. We have a 2800 sq-ft house, all electric, ground source heat pumps, 2 fridges plus freezer, pool plus. I paid on average $ 100/month ($1200/yr) for electric. I also collect solar energy credits from SREC Trade who auctions them to states to meet renewable mandates for energy. The credits started at about $ 75/mwh, but quickly dropped to under $ 5/mwh. They have rebounded to about $ 12/mwh recently. My total income from these credits is $ 1400 in six and a half months. The biggest benefit is that our state has "net metering" which means that I get credit for excess energy at the same price that I pay for electric. So power I have in excess of use runs the meter backwards. Some states and/or local utilities do not use net metering, so if you have excess power you either get no credit, or KWH credit at a much lower rate than you buy at. I considered a bigger system, but utility rules here treat any system over 10 KW to be a generation facility, so you do not get net metering and are paid for excess power at the current market price of generation (net rate is about $ 0.12-0.16/ kwh, generation rate about $ 0.04-0.06/ kwh).

I am very pleased with my system, but I know that the price breaks I received are not the norm for most people. One big change, however, is that my panels cost me $ 1.92/watt when I bought them and today panels are under $ 1.00/watt. That makes systems more affordable than in the past. So far no failures, no maintenance issues (panels are rain cleaned) and the only change is having to mow around the array.

I am not a fan of the current lease schemes. They can lower bills somewhat, and little to no up-front cash, but you will save more over the life of the system if you can afford to purchase. DIY saves a lot but may not be possible in some localities, so check.

paul

Subtract all the tax credits/subsidies for the mandates...would it still make sense?

 

[techman]

Subtract all the tax credits/subsidies for the mandates...would it still make sense?

It would be 20+ years to break even

paul

 

[TnAndy]

Subtract all the tax credits/subsidies for the mandates...would it still make sense?

Question often asked but only matters if they don't exist. If they do, that needs to be factored into the decision.

For example, many people are in the home rental business just because they aren't taxed 15.3% for Social Security tax on 'unearned' income. Credits/subsidies/tax differences exist, so it must factor into business decisions.

My utility offered a 10 year buy back of 10 cents OVER retail for solar power to encourage small installations (cap on size). They have scaled it back now, so new installs only get a fraction of that. My 50 panel system produces about all our power needs + about $1,000/yr income due to that initial contract. The next 10 years, there is no incentive pay, just a credit of excess production against use.

 

[Groo]

It would be 20+ years to break even

paul

and remember, pannels don't last forever. I believe most are only suposed to last 30 years before performance drops off too much.

 

[Old Guy in Tenn]

Federal tax credit for solar energy installation is 30% for 2018 and 2019, tapering off after that. Credit is for all expenses, including panels, electronics, wiring, excavation, fixtures, etc. If leasing, seller probably takes the credit. Make sure they call it out.

Panels are now easily under $1/watt. Most are guaranteed to produce at least 80% at 30 years after install. The electronics are expensive. Most systems are grid-tie, some are off-grid. If off-grid, or for backup if on-grid, you will need batteries. Batteries are expensive, and have finite lives.

We will be installing solar within a year, as it would cost over $50,000 to run power through the forest to our new place (PLUS buying the easements).

 

[farmeratheart]

What size battery reserve do you have in place to store the juice?

Thanks!

We have net metering at the meter we are on the grid. No batteries for storage. Excess production beyond the demand of our home is "banked" with the utility company.

Frank

 

[jmc]

I was advised that I could get a 30 percent tax credit on the entire solar installation expense. They went on to explain that the credit would also apply to any mounting structure required for the panels. So if you built a stand-alone South oriented roof, elevated with posts, that would also qualify as an allowed expense. If you later enclosed that structure at your own additional expense, it would look a lot like a pole shed.

 

[RalphVa]

Around 5 years or so ago, we had about a 3 kw array of 12 panels installed on our carriage house roof, as it's about the only reasonably south facing one we have that isn't shaded by trees. In the group deal (several of us went in together with 3 contractors; run by an organization in town) and with the (think it's) 30% federal writeoff, we got the payout down to about 7 years. The direct savings average out to about $50/month. This is for our central Va location just west of Charlottesville. Where you are and where you can place your panels, potential shading, etc. all come to bear, and the contractors have software that'll do those calcs but you can come close using some of the online estimators.

The beauty of solar panels is they just sit there and work. In the current issue of Mother Earth, there's an article by some excellent writers who installed both solar panels and a wind generator. They've had A LOT of maintenance issues with the wind generators. We've had NONE with the solar panels.

Still, at only $50/month, my wife insists that the panels aren't saving us money when she sees our bills every month. Going back and doing historical, etc., the $50/month is there and is what the contractor told us. To really make a dent in your bills, you'd have to spend about triple what we did. We don't have the roof space unless we take down our big River Birch tree that mostly shades the main part of the house. Then we'd lose the savings of that shade in the summer. Not sure it would pay out. If that River Birch ever had to be taken out, may go with another dozen or so panels (whatever will fit) on that roof.

Ralph

 

[dmccarty]

Go to Database of State Incentives for Renewables & Efficiency(R) - DSIRE and see what subsidies are available for your area.

If you want to have power from your solar panels when the grid fails, you have to have batteries. Batteries are expensive and a consumable. They last longer if you don't use them but they have to be charged correctly and should not use more than 50% of the batteries capacity to maintain a sorta decent lifetime.

To get the tax subsidies you will have to have the money in cash or via a loan to pay for the system and then wait for your money. The Feds return the money quickly. The state may not. The last time I read the NC law on this, they would 30 or 35% of the system cost. BUT, the state would rebate you no more than 50% of your state taxes. You could write it off over many years until you got your total refund. Lets say your system cost $10,000 so you would get a total of $3,500 back. But to get that $3,500 you would have to pay the state $7,000 in taxes to get your money back in one tax year. If you only paid $1,000 in state taxes, then NC would only refund you $500 a year and it would take seven years to get your money back.

Check to see how much your local power company pays you for power if you are grid connected. I took a class taught by a developer who built quite a few houses with solar panels. He no longer recommended selling your power back to the power companies in NC. Not worth the paper work hassle and cost. His advice was to figure out how much power you use on a daily basis, build the system to deliver that power, and not one watt more. Any watt over produced, and given back to the power compan,y was lost money on your part.

You will not get 100% of the power produced by the panels at your power outlets. I think the rule of thumb was only 65-75% of the power produced. You loose power in the wiring and transforming from DC to AC. Panels produce DC power but it has to be changed over to AC. Some panels have AC inverters other wise one uses one big centralized inverter.

I would not worry about the panel lifetime from a good company. The warranty is that the panel will produce it's rated power for N number of years. After N years it may not be producing what it was when new but it should still produce power. The cruising boat community use solar power to provide energy for their boats and I have not heard anyone complaining about good quality panels failing. Failures occur frequently in flexible and walk on panels but not good quality panels mounted like you would on a house. The boats are in a salt water environment and most/many of the panels are NOT rated for that environment but they do just fine.

Later,
Dan

 

[RobertN]

Yes, they have a life span. But they dont blow up at 20 years. Most are guaranteed at 80% at 20 years. Degradation rate is typical ~0.4%

My 7kw system is 8 years old. I don't expect 7kw at 20 years or 30 years. But, I expect they will still be operating fine.

Also remember panels have a life span. So the lease to own BS is basically them saying they own them until they cost more to remove or replace. I also would put them on my roof if I had any land at all. Make a carport or woodshed or something- as long as it wasn稚 on my roof!

 

[houstonscott]

Big questions...

How much energy do you use... kWh per day.
Does you power company have Net metering.
Read everything you can about SolarEdge.
How long will you live in this house
How much do you want to inpack you bill.
Are you concerned about LI battery fires.
Do you want to use array as emergency power
Whatç—´ not electric in you home.... water heater, heat, dryer, etc. do you have NG.

I have a 6.4 system, 21. 305 panels. 6000kw inverter.