any toro groundsmaster fans on here?

[jrsavoie]

I'm not the only one that runs stuff around here. Bad possibilities I see are somebody holding the glow plugs on to long.

Not holding them on long enough and cranking to much.

I like something where they can hit a button aND THEN HIT THE KEY WHEN THE LIGHT GOES OUT.

Never know when I might be down and not able to get out there.

I've seen some stuff that would make me wonder why.

I'm looking at $50 plus for something I have to order that will not do as good a job as running the glow plugs off a relay. Which I already have. Looks like an adjustable timer will be under $25.

And I have no idea what I will have to replace when I finally get time to open it up. If all I have to buy is a timer and different LED than what I have on hand, it will still be a cheaper better fix with a low degree of difficulty. Or I can just use one of the LED's I already have.

 

[Rocky J]

Jeff I have burnt some up. Back in the day 1980 when GM started the 5.7 diesel cars they could be a real pain to start. One real cold day I could not get it to start, almost but not stay running. Being just smart enough to get in trouble was my problem. I went to the output side of the timer and ran a hot wire from the positive of the battery and touched it on and yes i could keep it started for about 45 secounds and I burnt out every one of the 8 glow plugs. When I was ordering the new ones I found out they were 6 volt and that the timer would put out 12 volt for a short time to get hot quickly and not burn them out . The next one was not my fault but did see the evidence of to long. Bought a not running Jinma with the YangDong 3 cylinder and the key switch had went bad and they had put in a universal key switch for a gas car, no terminal for the glow plug so they attached it to the ign term and the glow plugs were on the whole time it ran. I installed a push button on the dash and 3 new glow plugs and it started up fine with a normal temp with 15 seconds and when real cold it took 30 seconds with compression release pulled and sometimes had to hold the button on while it ran for 30 seconds.

 

[jrsavoie]

Looks like I would definitely need to limit the voltage to these glow plugs.

I was just told they are not self limiting, which means they will burn themselves out.

I don't know if they are swellers or not, but I don't want to be the guy that finds a swollen glow plug in his head. To much work to let that happen or to make a mod that would encourage it.

I could still make the same mods for a time limiter and leave the coil in line. It'll only cost me $25 for the timier

 

[MultiMow]

Do you know if the regulator is working?

I didn't know what the amp rating was for the alternator, so copied this from the Operator Manual:

View attachment 489265

Yes, the regulator is functioning (with supplied charge from my truck, it will break the circuit, and close it after I unhook the cables).

The alternator is a 40 amp unit. The cheapest I've found is $215 through a Google search and cross reference. An 80 amp one-wire universal alternator from Advance Auto parts is only $250... but I would have to fab mounts, as it's a generic GM housing.

 

[MultiMow]

Do you think this would work for a glow plug timer - hooked up to a starter solenoid for a relay?

Car Ceiling Light Dimmer Delay Off Timer 7-14s for Lamp/LED Free Shipping CH1 | eBay

Not likely. LEDs are low-load devices. The reason they use specific relays, is due to that specific reason... an LED can't provide sufficient load to a standard relay to keep it engaged, or supply enough load to disengage a conventional relay that is calibrated for the load of an incandescent lamp. As a matter of fact, relay applications often had a separate false load circuit for LEDs, before more sensitive solutions came along.

The old fashioned analog indicator coil is your best solution for glow plug heat. The reason being is it's native operating function... as the indicator is subjected to the same ambient temperature as the glowplugs in your cold engine. You know when the indicator is at least a bright red, the glowplug's catalyst material is sufficiently heated (though I usually hold the button until I see a nice definitive orange).

My 455-D is different... as it has an OEM glowplug timer.... but it's not based on time. A lot of people mistake glowplug "timers" as just that... but in 99% of cases, they'd be wrong. Most analog automatic glowplug circuits are actually resistance based... meaning, after they the resistance of the circuit reaches a certain limit (resistance is near linear to the temperature/heat of the glowplug), the light turns off and you start the engine.

Do yourself a favor and snag a glowplug indicator. Nothing fancy to it, and they're designed to function when old and rusty (I can't imagine why yours doesn't work peoperly).

I think you may have a far simpler issue. If it's simply taking longer than you think it should (10-30sec above 32 degrees), start with checking the cold start amperage of your battery... the check/clean all of your ground connections, then check the ground/constant feed of your regulator.

If all these check out fine, then you either need a new indicator, or a new set of glowplugs.

I've never had to replace mine, so I can't tell/show you what they should look like, OR what type they are.

Generally, there are only two types of glowplugs... plated catalyst, and solid/sintered catalyst. A plated catalyst glowplug will not only wear out faster than a solid/sintered one... but may also show no sign of malfunction aside from excessive carbon deposits or the malfunction itself.

 

[jrsavoie]

Not likely. LEDs are low-load devices. The reason they use specific relays, is due to that specific reason... an LED can't provide sufficient load to a standard relay to keep it engaged, or supply enough load to disengage a conventional relay that is calibrated for the load of an incandescent lamp. As a matter of fact, relay applications often had a separate false load circuit for LEDs, before more sensitive solutions came along.

The old fashioned analog indicator coil is your best solution for glow plug heat. The reason being is it's native operating function... as the indicator is subjected to the same ambient temperature as the glowplugs in your cold engine. You know when the indicator is at least a bright red, the glowplug's catalyst material is sufficiently heated (though I usually hold the button until I see a nice definitive orange).

My 455-D is different... as it has an OEM glowplug timer.... but it's not based on time. A lot of people mistake glowplug "timers" as just that... but in 99% of cases, they'd be wrong. Most analog automatic glowplug circuits are actually resistance based... meaning, after they the resistance of the circuit reaches a certain limit (resistance is near linear to the temperature/heat of the glowplug), the light turns off and you start the engine.

Do yourself a favor and snag a glowplug indicator. Nothing fancy to it, and they're designed to function when old and rusty (I can't imagine why yours doesn't work peoperly).

I think you may have a far simpler issue. If it's simply taking longer than you think it should (10-30sec above 32 degrees), start with checking the cold start amperage of your battery... the check/clean all of your ground connections, then check the ground/constant feed of your regulator.

If all these check out fine, then you either need a new indicator, or a new set of glowplugs.

I've never had to replace mine, so I can't tell/show you what they should look like, OR what type they are.

Generally, there are only two types of glowplugs... plated catalyst, and solid/sintered catalyst. A plated catalyst glowplug will not only wear out faster than a solid/sintered one... but may also show no sign of malfunction aside from excessive carbon deposits or the malfunction itself.

Thanks for the info. I had suspicioned that glow plug timers were not actually timers. But never knew exactly how they worked.

My 223D Reelmaster had a similar glow plug timer as your 455D.

if I had a parts machine with that set up, I would rob and swap.

I've tested battery voltage - 12.4 or so after sitting for a week or so. I have not put the load tester on it. Or at least not that I remember at the moment. I haven't got back to this project at all, since I last posted about it. Funny about that - Load testing batteries is one of the first things I usually do on anything.

Especially on newer vehicles - a marginal battery can cause you all sorts of grief - along with poor grounds.

By looking at other options. I've garnered a little important info.

I was not going to use the LED to power the relay - simply to indicate the relay was being powered.

Now I see how the coil indicator works. So it should light up about the same time the glow plugs are hot. Since I am getting low voltage to the glow plugs it would take much longer for it to heat up also. When I get to it, I will be load testing the battery first and then checking voltages in the controls box

Thanks for the inputs

 

[jrsavoie]

Yes, the regulator is functioning (with supplied charge from my truck, it will break the circuit, and close it after I unhook the cables).

The alternator is a 40 amp unit. The cheapest I've found is $215 through a Google search and cross reference. An 80 amp one-wire universal alternator from Advance Auto parts is only $250... but I would have to fab mounts, as it's a generic GM housing.

I have picked up used alternators from various vehicles, for $20 or less and made mounts for them. Usually had less than 5 hours in them all told - including getting the alternator. Mostly for old tractors. Some 6 volt to 12 volt conversions.

1 - 20hp Kohler that the charging system went bad on - but I had room to mount an alternator rather easily. Turned out to be much cheaper and easier than buying and replacing the parts for the K532 Kohler. Also did a Wisconsin engine for the same reason.

In this application a heavier duty used alternator might serve you well.

 

[MultiMow]

Thanks for the info. I had suspicioned that glow plug timers were not actually timers. But never knew exactly how they worked.

My 223D Reelmaster had a similar glow plug timer as your 455D.

if I had a parts machine with that set up, I would rob and swap.

I've tested battery voltage - 12.4 or so after sitting for a week or so. I have not put the load tester on it. Or at least not that I remember at the moment. I haven't got back to this project at all, since I last posted about it. Funny about that - Load testing batteries is one of the first things I usually do on anything.

Especially on newer vehicles - a marginal battery can cause you all sorts of grief - along with poor grounds.

By looking at other options. I've garnered a little important info.

I was not going to use the LED to power the relay - simply to indicate the relay was being powered.

Now I see how the coil indicator works. So it should light up about the same time the glow plugs are hot. Since I am getting low voltage to the glow plugs it would take much longer for it to heat up also. When I get to it, I will be load testing the battery first and then checking voltages in the controls box

Thanks for the inputs

My apologies. I thought you were going to use the relay you found/exampled/posted to switch the current for your glowplugs. I knew you weren't going to use an LED circuit to power them... I was just worried that you might try to use that relay you posted about.... as relays intended for LED circuits are not intended to work under that much load. As a matter of fact, relays built specifically for LED circuits were design out of necessity for the exact opposite reason... because the old fashioned timed relays could not properly switch on/off for lack of current draw/load. This required them to make relays that were far more sensitive, because no LED short of a spectral emitter would pull enough current to fluctuate what is needed for a glow plug circuit. Vice-versa... A glowplug circuit would be too much for an LED relay, and would either fry the control circuit, or simply reduce the switch time to an ineffective interval. Much the same as when a signal bulb burns out in an old car. When all the current is run through one bulb, the ramp time for resistance occurs with much faster (making the signal flash faster, or much slower (making the signal flash slower) [series vs parallel]. That's what I meant when people mistake what is advertised as a "timed relay"... as most of them don't have clock circuits, but are resistance/load based.

 

[jrsavoie]

My apologies. I thought you were going to use the relay you found/exampled/posted to switch the current for your glowplugs. I knew you weren't going to use an LED circuit to power them... I was just worried that you might try to use that relay you posted about.... as relays intended for LED circuits are not intended to work under that much load. As a matter of fact, relays built specifically for LED circuits were design out of necessity for the exact opposite reason... because the old fashioned timed relays could not properly switch on/off for lack of current draw/load. This required them to make relays that were far more sensitive, because no LED short of a spectral emitter would pull enough current to fluctuate what is needed for a glow plug circuit. Vice-versa... A glowplug circuit would be too much for an LED relay, and would either fry the control circuit, or simply reduce the switch time to an ineffective interval. Much the same as when a signal bulb burns out in an old car. When all the current is run through one bulb, the ramp time for resistance occurs with much faster (making the signal flash faster, or much slower (making the signal flash slower) [series vs parallel]. That's what I meant when people mistake what is advertised as a "timed relay"... as most of them don't have clock circuits, but are resistance/load based.

I was intending to install the relay/timer between the toggle switch and the heavy relay to run the glow plugs.

The relay I was going to use to run the glow plugs was a starter solenoid from a garden tractor - similar to the old Ford starter solenoids.

Still haven't got back to this project. But I really need to. They are predicting up to 8" of snow in the near future.

Right now I am totally unprepared. Hopefully later today or tomorrow I will work on it.

I finally load tested the battery - can't believe I did not do that a long time ago. The battery load tested marginal - right on the line between green and yellow. I will be getting a new battery ASAP.

I have to see how big a battery I can install. I have 2 - group 31's from the International DT360. But I'm pretty sure they won't fit. LOL

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge

 

[jrsavoie]

I have picked up used alternators from various vehicles, for $20 or less and made mounts for them. Usually had less than 5 hours in them all told - including getting the alternator. Mostly for old tractors. Some 6 volt to 12 volt conversions.

1 - 20hp Kohler that the charging system went bad on - but I had room to mount an alternator rather easily. Turned out to be much cheaper and easier than buying and replacing the parts for the K532 Kohler. Also did a Wisconsin engine for the same reason.

In this application a heavier duty used alternator might serve you well.

A note on adding alternators that I forgot to touch on - Make sure whatever alternator you use either has a built in voltage regulator or you have an external voltage regulator