Anyone in the market for a midsize car? I was.

[3930dave]

Came accross this link to a class action lawsuit. I don't know how legit this is since we never got a notice of the suit. I'm not abig fan of joining class action suits since, usually, the only ones to make out are the lawyers. Honda Accord Oil Defect Class Action Lawsuit

What worries me is the comments -didn't read them all, but a lot of people with higher mileage accord V6's are using a lot more oil than we are. I'm thinking the oil consumption is going to get noticeable worse over time, so perhaps it's best just to trade out of it now. Personally, I would not be afraid to buy another Honda as long as it's not a V6 with the VCM feature, which I think all of them except maybe the Ridgeline come with standard. My wife, however, will not drive or buy another Honda. We had a few problems with our 2003 Pilot, though nothing like this. Still, the Pilot being our first Honda, we finished that ownership experience with the thought, "Don't really get what all this Honda devotion is about."

We had two Subaru's that gave us flawless ownership experiences and four Toyota's with good experiences. The only Toyota issue was the frame rust on my '99 Taco, which Toyota bought back after 12 years at 150% of retail blue book value, so I can't complain about that.

Esp. in Honda, I've always preferred their 4 cylinders, with a stick trani. I get that many folks today won't/can't drive stick, but unless you drive a car full of football players around all the time, then 185 hp with a stick should be at least adequate in today's Accord.

For the people who lease short term, then it's a don't-care, but one of the reasons I prefer the modern Honda 4's is that the cam is chain driven. If you own the V6 long term, then you are dealing with Tbelt changes.

Technical complexity is the biggest challenge with these variable displacement systems. IMO, the other thing that has been going on (long term) with Honda is that the "feel" of the company has changed. They got hung out to dry for cheaping out on the interior of the 2'nd last Civic model, but that was mostly a symptom of what was going on top-level. The last of the original founding family got pushed out of a control position in the company - my street level view is this evolution has resulted in a more typically "corporate" company.

If buying new (a car you plan to hold onto), and you have to have an Automatic trani, then yes I'd be looking at something other than a Honda. The CVT they use on the Accord 4 now may be reliable, but I'd want to see more data/time with field use before I'd buy one. Just my :2cents:.

Rgds, D.

 

[Peacock]

Honda's VCM adds no more mechanical complexity than the VTEC valve train they've been using since the '80's. The PCM programming and engine mounts are the main stumbling blocks.

The Honda system seems to actually return the rated fuel economy, or better.

We just returned from 1400 mile vacation in our Odyssey. This was all in the hills/mountains of Kentucky and Tennessee with 4 people and enough luggage and food for the whole trip. We never had a tank that was over 75% highway and never on consistent flat ground. Our fuel economy ranged from 23.8 to 25.7. Not bad for a heavy van that is only rated at 25 highway!

 

[Peacock]

Esp. in Honda, I've always preferred their 4 cylinders, with a stick trani. I get that many folks today won't/can't drive stick, but unless you drive a car full of football players around all the time, then 185 hp with a stick should be at least adequate in today's Accord.

For the people who lease short term, then it's a don't-care, but one of the reasons I prefer the modern Honda 4's is that the cam is chain driven. If you own the V6 long term, then you are dealing with Tbelt changes.

Technical complexity is the biggest challenge with these variable displacement systems. IMO, the other thing that has been going on (long term) with Honda is that the "feel" of the company has changed. They got hung out to dry for cheaping out on the interior of the 2'nd last Civic model, but that was mostly a symptom of what was going on top-level. The last of the original founding family got pushed out of a control position in the company - my street level view is this evolution has resulted in a more typically "corporate" company.

If buying new (a car you plan to hold onto), and you have to have an Automatic trani, then yes I'd be looking at something other than a Honda. The CVT they use on the Accord 4 now may be reliable, but I'd want to see more data/time with field use before I'd buy one. Just my :2cents:.

Rgds, D.

The transmissions have been pretty good for a while now. Aside from some programming glitches that have resulted in torque converter replacements they've been real solid since '04 on the V6 models. The Civic and CR-V have always been very solid.

From what I see on a day to day basis in the shops, I hold a current Honda automatic above the domestics.

 

[3930dave]

For the most part, over the years, Honda has turned out decent/good/great vehicles.

One of the differences now is that there is a lot more competition in the small car market. (I say that, being old enough to remember when the original Civic came out).

I'm not a fan of automatics in general. In today's small car market, if I had to choose a small car with an automatic (for family reasons), then I'd probably be looking at Toyota first.

I'm not saying that Honda makes terrible automatic tranis, but the issues that do seem to come along don't match what I traditionally considered a typical Honda quality (on the engine side, esp.) level.

To be fair to Honda, I would like to see detailed feedback from people that had been maintaining their Honda automatics on schedule (Severe Service if applicable), including the use of full spec rated ATF.

Older guys (like me ) often got pretty lazy about transmission service maintenance - some of the old fully hydraulic domestic transmissions could put up with a pretty ridiculous amount of abuse and neglect (thinking C4, C6). All else equal, the higher complexity (solenoids are always a weak point), lower weight, higher power levels, and smaller case sizes of modern automatics are a hard act to balance, for any manufacturer.

Personally, if I was forced into owning a small modern automatic, I'd be adding a good quality Aux Transmission cooler ASAP. I suspect that ultra high ATF temperature is a factor in some of these problem cases.

Rgds, D.

 

[crazyal]

Most small automatics come with better than average AFT fluid in them. But people who fail to read the manual after checking the level just pick up a quart or two of anything they can find at the corner store. Often it's not compatible and wears out or breaks down the clutch plates. I had a GF with a Hyundai that required sp III fluid and my father's Civic required DW-1 fluid. I don't think the SP III was synthetic but the DW-1 could be. I suspect that the engineers who design these transmissions spec out additives that compatible with the materials they use.

 

[Peacock]

Most small automatics come with better than average AFT fluid in them. But people who fail to read the manual after checking the level just pick up a quart or two of anything they can find at the corner store. Often it's not compatible and wears out or breaks down the clutch plates. I had a GF with a Hyundai that required sp III fluid and my father's Civic required DW-1 fluid. I don't think the SP III was synthetic but the DW-1 could be. I suspect that the engineers who design these transmissions spec out additives that compatible with the materials they use.

You are exactly right. The engineers design a fluid package to work with their transmission design.

 

[3930dave]

You are exactly right. The engineers design a fluid package to work with their transmission design.

And, this is making buying a used car w. automatic even more problematic than it used to be. If it needs fluid (more so lately, a real PITA to determine on many vehicles) many people will dump in "whatever", with the ensuing related problems. You can blame the previous owner, but it is your repair bill if the trani is pooched. Hopefully, the OEM clearly labels the fluid requirement on the fill plug, as you really can't expect the average consumer to read a manual.

OK, so far we can put most of the blame at the feet of lazy/careless/ignorant car owners - so what about the vehicle manufacturer ?

I know of at least one manufacturer (not Honda) that goes out of it's way to NOT license their ATF specs to the aftermarket. In that case (and there are probably others), you only have one place (the dealer) to buy very high priced ATF.

As if people needed another excuse/reason to avoid doing scheduled maintenance. ATF and coolant are 2 things that often get neglected by many owners.

I understand why the car manufacturer makes this move - it is great business for them. They make tons of money off the people who do buy their sole-source fluid, end up with a valid reason for rejecting transmission warranty claims from people who use a non-spec fluid, and generate new sales from the people who never bother changing the ATF.

Many automotive technologies require less maintenance (time/$); some of these modern automatics have gone the opposite direction - price out maintenance on a VW DSG - expensive fluid, and as I recall, the change interval is not that long.

My rambles above are some of why I don't like automatics, and good reasons to low-ball an offer on a high(er) mileage used car unless there is documented proof of OEM spec maintenance. For some vehicles, even installing a used automatic transmission is extremely expensive.

These high priced ATF changes do add up, esp. for a high mileage driver - it would be interesting to do a cost study comparing the incremental mpg gain of these newer automatics vs. the much higher service costs - the payback might be quite a bit longer than the car companies would like to admit.

Rgds, D.

 

[Peacock]

I totally agree with what you are saying. I have never owned an automatic for my self, other than my old Buick GN. My wife only drives an auto because you can't get a stick shift Honda van.

Honda auto trans service is very cheap. 3-4 qts of fluid and no filter to replace.

 

[3930dave]

I totally agree with what you are saying. I have never owned an automatic for my self, other than my old Buick GN. My wife only drives an auto because you can't get a stick shift Honda van.

Honda auto trans service is very cheap. 3-4 qts of fluid and no filter to replace.

Seeing a '95 CTD in your Sig, I didn't think I'd have to spend much time selling you on the benefits of older technology :thumbsup: .

Didn't know that there was no filter on the Honda automatics.... sounds like a good Magnefine application.

I'm pleased to see Honda still offering stick tranis in many of their models, as some manufacturers don't bother much in N. America.

Rgds, D.

 

[Peacock]

That's all part of the reason why I like Honda products. Despite the way it seems with technologies like VTEC and VCM, Honda is generally very elegant in the mechanical simplicity.

The autos have a filter, just not generally serviceable.

 

[EE_Bota]

Instead of waiting for the dealer to tell you what your fault code is you could try an android app called torque. The app is $5 and an it connects via Bluetooth to a dongle you can buy at Amazon for $20.
It gives you all the fault codes and lots more info on your car like the expensive diagnostic machines.

I have done this, and it is really cool.
One reason I went this way is to read and record my Turbo boost characteristics. If it runs "funny" later, I want that recorded so I can see if it is in the turbo system.

 

[3930dave]

That's all part of the reason why I like Honda products. Despite the way it seems with technologies like VTEC and VCM, Honda is generally very elegant in the mechanical simplicity.

The autos have a filter, just not generally serviceable.

I'm familiar with the course screens on old automatics - the "Well, it'll stop it sucking up rocks in the pan, but that's about it" kind of course.

Is this the type of filter you reference ?

Rgds, D.

 

[Peacock]

Hahaha....

No, it's a comparable to what any other trans uses now. Goes down to however many microns and whatnot. Just isn't serviceable without splitting the case.

Some of them have a fluid warmer that also has a screen in it. It is replaceable fairly easily. Not sure it would really help anything.

The general cause of failure with the older 4 speed and early 5 speed Honda autos was huge amounts of heat in the 2nd or 3rd clutch. The lining would simply fall off and plug the passages and filter.

 

[3930dave]

Interesting, not what I would have expected for accessibility on that class of filter.

Gotta say, I do like how GM set up some of their heavy and Saturn transmissions - can't beat a spin on for access.

Rgds, D.

 

[Diamondpilot]

Filter is really worthless on a automatic. Most now days are sealed like on my Titan. No filter either. Just drain and refill every 30,000 miles. Easy as changing oil. Cost about $30. By the time a tranny filter comes into play its too late and the damage is done. Just like a manual doesn't have one.

Most new cars don't have fuel filters either other than the sock on the in tank pickup.

Chris

 

[Peacock]

The filter was essential on older models that had heavy clutch wear. These days the clutches wear so little that a replaceable filter isn't needed.

 

[3930dave]

I think you are highlighting current trends in automotive engineering/marketing Chris, as opposed to advocating using badly or non-filtered fluid in a high-pressure hydraulic pump.

How many of us would buy a tractor today that did not have a spin-on hydraulic filter ? I'm honestly not sure why we want to tolerate/accept the lack of it our road vehicles ?

Mechanically, I prefer more filtration, ideally with an easy to access filter, as opposed to less/none. If we take the Honda above as an example, yes, the source of the problem sounds like poor heat managment (gee, when does that ever happen in mechanical systems ) but an easy to access filter might have meant getting 300k out of the trani, as opposed to having it pack up at 180k.

That's my take on it, but I get that the avg. consumer doesn't pay any attention to maintenance and is the main reason that these zero maintenance "features" have been designed in. Obviously, the manufacturers today don't want you getting 300k+ out of the original trani either.

Recently GM has a big problem with the automatics in some of their CUVs. Well, I guess I should restate that, as they are failing just outside of warranty, so it's not really GM's problem at that stage. Back to that olde More Power/More Gears/Smaller Design Envelope battle.... yet again.

Even someone with my level of OCD doesn't expect a filter in a (traditional) manual transmission - you're only bathing gears in that casing. There is no high pressure hydraulic pump present, so a plug magnet for the steel particles is good enough.

I recognize the trends you list Chris (both the prevalence, and at least some of the related engineering issues), I just happen to not agree with most of them.

Rgds, D.

 

[crazyal]

It's one reason why I like Toyota. They spec the oil change interval for their AT at 100k under normal use.

 

[Diamondpilot]

Tractor hydraulic system and a sealed transmission are two different animals as is the environment they are used in.

Chris

 

[3930dave]

Agreed, they are different. You don't normally expect hay inside a GM truck trani - that's why my 3930 hydraulic filter is easily 4 times the size of the GM spin on I was talking about.

I'd wager that the heat issues are way worse in the slushbox in the average commuter car, than my 40L sump of hydraulic fluid on my tractor. Definitely different animals.

Even in a sealed transmission, clutches, gears, and bearings throw off material. Until those wear modes are eliminated, I'll stick with easily changeable trani filters for as long as I can.

Rgds, D.