B2650 stopped and won’t start

   / B2650 stopped and won’t start #41  
Oh, OK, so 911 is an additive. Did you really mean you achieved 50% 911 in the fluid? That is just curiosity but if I heard right, then 50% seems awfully high. Maybe too much ? Being unfamiliar with it is that what the manfr recommends? Great to know such a product exists for that specific problem.
I've no idea what you guys on your side of the pond have, but here diesel at the pump comes with an additive to prevent gelling by frost and I never add any additive. Years ago, truck drivers used to add parraffin [kerosine], but then you guys might get a lot colder than us.
 
   / B2650 stopped and won’t start #42  
This sure does seem like a strange one.

From the Messik's Website I downloaded a PDF of the fuel system. The B2650 comes with a cab and without and their fuel system seems the same. Attached is the PDF for a B2650 without a cab. You just might want to confirm everything is routed correctly if you had any of the hoses off.
 

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   / B2650 stopped and won’t start #43  
Some have a electric shutoff that stops the fuel to stop the engine. Could be bad and not letting fuel through. What year is it? This is why I like the older tractors without all the computerized junk.
 
   / B2650 stopped and won’t start #44  
Some have a electric shutoff that stops the fuel to stop the engine. Could be bad and not letting fuel through. What year is it? This is why I like the older tractors without all the computerized junk.
Here is a link to the Messicks site, I know for some tractors they a look up based upon serial number, this one didn't seem to offer that option:

It may be worth searching on your model and fuel solenoid?

I hope you can find your issue.

 
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   / B2650 stopped and won’t start #45  
I've no idea what you guys on your side of the pond have, but here diesel at the pump comes with an additive to prevent gelling by frost and I never add any additive. Years ago, truck drivers used to add parraffin [kerosine], but then you guys might get a lot colder than us.
Over here (USA) many northern states and regions "winterize" diesel fuel that we purchase at the pumps just like you. The problem is that I am never SURE which ones are and are not "winterized," especially in places that are on the edges of very cold zones, source of the fuel is not known, etc. Just cannot count on it. In some places kerosene is also called paraffin but not commonly among diesel users in the US. Here #1 fuel oil is kerosene and can accurately be referred to as #1 diesel or as "lamp oil." Using a 50/50 mix of #2 diesel with kerosene is (or was) common practice in our northern states in heavy equipment where temps often went below zero F or below around minus 8 C.
 
   / B2650 stopped and won’t start #46  
Some have a electric shutoff that stops the fuel to stop the engine. Could be bad and not letting fuel through. What year is it? This is why I like the older tractors without all the computerized junk.
Anything is possible but it seems awfully unlikely that some complicated mechanism or gizmo failed right in the middle of his working and running the tractor. Seems more likely to me that the fuel gelled (and the sputtering partial restarts are typical of that problem.) I'm thinking various other issues were fallout from taking the fuel plumbing apart.
 
   / B2650 stopped and won’t start
  • Thread Starter
#47  
If it’s gelled fuel, how would I get past this? Warming the whole tractor? I know it’s winterized diesel, I’m in NW Colorado and it’s labeled at the pump.

I’m going to drain the fuel again so I remove any 911. Is it a bad idea to use my mityvac to apply vacuum to the exit hose past the bleed screw?

We still have weeks of low temps. I can rig a tarp surround, but a little concerned about running an electric heater.
 
   / B2650 stopped and won’t start #48  
1,000 mile Dx: I'm pretty sure it gelled up, since it was so cold at the time. A good load of winterized fuel has been added, be sure to add extra PS additive. "911" is an emergency option and calls for a 50/50 mix into the filter jar, and (something? - I don't have a bottle handy) when added to the tank. The other Power System diesel additive (white bottle) is what I use year round. Mixture rate is like 1 oz per 3 gallons of fuel (doubled if REAL cold), and says it will NOT un-gel the fuel - only keep it FROM gelling.

Mity-vac won't help. Heated tent MIGHT.

Is there ice on/in the fuel filter, still?

After it died from no fuel, it now also has air in the system, which needs to get bled out. Keep toying with that bleeder valve - it seems to be responding to that (put the hose back on). IMHO
 
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   / B2650 stopped and won’t start #49  
If it’s gelled fuel, how would I get past this? Warming the whole tractor? I know it’s winterized diesel, I’m in NW Colorado and it’s labeled at the pump.

I’m going to drain the fuel again so I remove any 911. Is it a bad idea to use my mityvac to apply vacuum to the exit hose past the bleed screw?

We still have weeks of low temps. I can rig a tarp surround, but a little concerned about running an electric heater.
I sure understand what you are saying ! My thoughts in post #46 are that while you were working in the snow that day when it quit on you that the fuel probably gelled at that point. The symptoms match what I have had when fuel gelled on me twice in the past. If you were running winterized fuel at that point (and it must be from being labeled so at the pump) then I must be wrong and it must be something else. You have the experience in your NW CO environs with that and you probably have reason to trust the winterized label. Down here in "marginal" parts of the country where it very rarely gets cold enough to gel diesel fuel the winterization label cannot be trusted and is often a verbal claim by the gas station with no labels.

The gel effect probably varies quite a bit with how cold the outside air temp (OAT) was/is. Do you know how cold it was when the tractor quit on you? Would have had to be below 15 deg F for gel. My 2 data points where the diesel chugged sputtered & quit on me (and would then restart only for a few seconds) were in one case crossing a mountain ridge (in WV) where the OAT went from about 20 deg down to ~ 11 degrees. The other was an overnight case in northern VT where it went to 10 below zero, I had an engine heater in place and it started right up with ease next morn but then chugged sputtered & quit about 1/4 mile down the road and 10 minutes later. These were both in a VW 4 cyl diesel. The WV fuel was probably NOT winterized and the VT fuel certainly should have been.

Back closer to your situation, I have been struggling to think what I would do. If you are confident that the fuel winterization in your area is adequate (not just marked but adequate) then I'm barking up the wrong tree and it must not have been gel issues. With the severe cold you have mentioned surely others around you there would have gel issues and if not then the winterization must be adequate. For sure I'd ask around in your neck of the woods -- be it tractors, diesel sedans or heavy equipment. People must know.

When thinking "low temp and gel" like you I could not figure out how I would get past it other than to warm up the whole machine somehow (which was why I asked about using another tractor to tow it into a warm work area.) Then the idea of installing an in-line coolant heater in one of the radiator hoses. Understand being concerned about putting an electric heater under a tarp -- if done that would need careful installation and just might not work anyway. I have no opinions about using the mityvac.

Why would you drain the fuel again if it has 911 in it and was almost certainly winterized anyway?

As I mentioned in post #34 the guy named gstrom99 seemed to be right that we saw enough fuel squirting in your video that it ought to run the engine. His idea of opening the injector lines one at a time on the output side of the injection pump should prove once and for all whether you have fuel being injected or not and also serves to flush anything out of the injection pump if it will move the fluid. Nothing much is more picky about moving fluid than an injection pump so if it moves the fuel that says a lot. I would think also that gstrom99's suggestion -- about bleeding each high pressure injection line -- would vindicate the controls and solenoids and whatever that might be stopping flow. Either works or it don't.

In my already-too-long-comment... one last thing, I'd be careful not to do damage to your starter motor. Rest it when you can because this whole incident is putting some abnormal strain on the starter and related.
 
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   / B2650 stopped and won’t start
  • Thread Starter
#50  
I'll change the fuel again because I need to remove the variable. There's more 911 in there than half a filter reservoir. I tried that amount and nothing changed so it was recommended to add more. Probably has a total of 3-4 oz.
I'm sold on the gelling and now to figure out a way to heat it. My truck with the winch is snowed in which is why I need the tractor. Ha!
 
   / B2650 stopped and won’t start #51  
The pumpguysc early on recommended disconnecting the shutdown solenoid at the pump to eliminate any electrical issues.
He knows his stuff!
Please try it!
Good Luck!
 
   / B2650 stopped and won’t start #52  
Over here (USA) many northern states and regions "winterize" diesel fuel that we purchase at the pumps just like you. The problem is that I am never SURE which ones are and are not "winterized," especially in places that are on the edges of very cold zones, source of the fuel is not known, etc. Just cannot count on it. In some places kerosene is also called paraffin but not commonly among diesel users in the US. Here #1 fuel oil is kerosene and can accurately be referred to as #1 diesel or as "lamp oil." Using a 50/50 mix of #2 diesel with kerosene is (or was) common practice in our northern states in heavy equipment where temps often went below zero F or below around minus 8 C.
Yea, I think you guys do get it a good bit colder than us, even though we do sometimes get a cold spell. Looking at this guys problem with his tractor, I'm not convinced it's gelling thats his problem.We have lots of diesel cars on our roads, I have one myself, but never seem to have problems due to the cold. This guy to me seems to be getting air into his system, lets hope he sorts it.
 
   / B2650 stopped and won’t start #53  
I can rig a tarp surround, but a little concerned about running an electric heater.
Try a kerosene torpedo heater? More of a fire risk, but more btu's...
 
   / B2650 stopped and won’t start #54  
Anything is possible but it seems awfully unlikely that some complicated mechanism or gizmo failed right in the middle of his working and running the tractor. Seems more likely to me that the fuel gelled (and the sputtering partial restarts are typical of that problem.) I'm thinking various other issues were fallout from taking the fuel plumbing apart.
I have a friend with a Bx23 that had his quit one day. He ran the tractor shut it off and wouldn't start the next time. It was the fuel shutoff that went bad that fast. Electrical components can go at any time doesn't have to be a slow process. Diesels run on fuel and compression. Electric is only needed to work the starter. No fuel no running, that's why a simple air leak stops diesels from running. The fuel shutoff is nothing but an electro magnet that pulls a pin out of the way to let fuel pass through. It's like turning the fuel off with a valve. Easy way to check is unhook it and turn the key to on and see if it pulls the pin in. If it does it's ok.
 
   / B2650 stopped and won’t start
  • Thread Starter
#55  
So if it's pumping fuel after the bleeder screw, would that eliminate the solenoid problem and fuel shutoff problem?
 
   / B2650 stopped and won’t start #56  
So if it's pumping fuel after the bleeder screw, would that eliminate the solenoid problem and fuel shutoff problem?

I would beleive so but to be sure as was suggested just remove the fuel shut off solenoid, it is only 2 bolts. However, if your tractor starts with it removed you'll either have to reinstall the shut off or block off the air to the engine as your tractor will not shut off.

Snipit Kubota BX2650-1.jpg
 
   / B2650 stopped and won’t start #57  
So if it's pumping fuel after the bleeder screw, would that eliminate the solenoid problem and fuel shutoff problem?
You mean that little hose you took off when you did the video? NO! That is only showing your lift pump works. The solenoid shuts off of fuel in the injector pump. I'm thinking there is so much air throughout the fuel system that it needs a knowledgeable person to troubleshoot and bleed it at this point.
 
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   / B2650 stopped and won’t start #58  
You mean that little hose you took off when you did the video? NO! That is only showing your lift pump works. The solenoid shuts off of fuel in the injector pump. I'm thinking there is so much air throughout the fuel system that it needs a knowledgeable person to bleed it at this point.


I guess if it were me I'd put all the hoses back on, remove the fuel shut off solenoid, loosen (maybe 1/2 a turn) one at a time the nut on the fuel line as it connects to each injector and turn the engine over until there was a good squirt/flow of fuel, then tighten that nut down and proceed to the next nut.

If you can't get a good bleed than there is either a blockage or your pump is bad?

If you can isolate the blockage to one line and you feel its gelled use a hair dryer to warm that line.
 
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   / B2650 stopped and won’t start #59  
I guess if it were me I'd put all the hoses back on, remove the fuel shut off solenoid, loosen (maybe 1/2 a turn) one at a time the nut on the fuel line as it connects to each injector and turn the engine over until there was a good squirt/flow of fuel, then tighten that nut down and proceed to the next nut.

If you can't get a good bleed than there is either a blockage or your pump is bad?

If you can isolate the blockage to one line and you feel its gelled use a hair dryer to warm that line.
All good, except a "hair drier" won't be hot enough outside. A heat gun might.
1676487481623.png
 
   / B2650 stopped and won’t start #60  
I guess if it were me I'd put all the hoses back on, remove the fuel shut off solenoid, loosen (maybe 1/2 a turn) one at a time the nut on the fuel line as it connects to each injector and turn the engine over until there was a good squirt/flow of fuel, then tighten that nut down and proceed to the next nut.

If you can't get a good bleed than there is either a blockage or your pump is bad?

If you can isolate the blockage to one line and you feel its gelled use a hair dryer to warm that line.
The guy will wear his starter out by the time he figures out he has a blockage at the filter etc. He should start at the tank and move forwards to the injector pump instead of hopping around. I know of a pro on-the-road bobcat (kubota engine) mechanic that RARELY cracks injector lines during bleeding on modern engines.
 

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