Buying Advice Ballast Box vs Wheel Weights vs Filled Tires

[rjkobbeman]

I don't have numbers for tractors other than those that I own.
I have figured out the front axle loads for each one with the loader at it's max, allowing for a reasonable percentage of the tractor's own weight, the loader frame itself, the fact that the load is cantilevered out in front, etc and every one of them comes in WELL UNDER the front axle rating, i.e. I don't see any NEED to relive the front axles of their load.

My "SUSPICION" is that the belief that there is a need to relieve the front axle of part of it's load may be a hang-over from when FELs were a new thing and tractor designs lagged the need for sturdy front ends. Not suggesting that it goes back as far as tricycle fronts ends, but maybe to before when tractors became the Swiss Army knife with loader, back hoe, mower... and forklift duties.

I have a minor problem believing that it is a GOOD thing to add, say 1,000 lbs to the rear of a tractor to get somewhere in the order of 375 lbs reduction in front axle load to reduce wear and tear / prolong service life.
That 1,000 lbs burdens the rest of the tractor, whether there is anything in the bucket or not, so if you have a worry about wear and tear consider the empty trips TO the pile/stack as well.

OTOH, tire ballast isn't "carried", but that is a whole 'nother fun argument we've visited a few times (-:

Are you missing the point about keeping the rear end of the tractor on the ground? Several of us have said the bigger issue is keeping the rear tires down...

 

[Snapper Head]

I'm new to all of this (8 hours seat time, Kubota L3940 4WDHST), but I did do some testing with the FEL, scooping hard dirt from a pile. I tried it without the 6 foot brush hog attached to the rear, and I tried it without. Both in standard drive, and 4WD (which is really 3WD select, but that's another thread). Hands down, having the weight on the rear and using 3/4 wheel drive, I could grab much more dirt because the tractor would go forward more readily, and further before getting wheelslip.

I also like the very compact nature of the factory ballast box, and I simply don't have time to fab something up. If I did, I would do so. For me, it makes more sense to purchase the solution.

Filled tires - again, as a newbie I was completely unsure about this after reading a billion threads here about it. So I chose not to go that route until I get more time with the tractor. I admit that I don't like the idea, because of the flat tire hassle, corrosion, etc. I did order a factory front weight bar, but no weights. Again, I need to see what my real world need will be.

I do know that with the FEL on the front and the 6 foot brush hog on the back, my tractor is a land yacht, which makes for quite an adventure when hogging through some of the thicker places with trees, as well as hogging the pasture near the fenced corners.

Weak front axle?? They all are.


Big Al

 

[TripleR]

Filled tires - again, as a newbie I was completely unsure about this after reading a billion threads here about it. So I chose not to go that route until I get more time with the tractor. I admit that I don't like the idea, because of the flat tire hassle, corrosion, etc. I did order a factory front weight bar, but no weights. Again, I need to see what my real world need will be.

I do know that with the FEL on the front and the 6 foot brush hog on the back, my tractor is a land yacht, which makes for quite an adventure when hogging through some of the thicker places with trees, as well as hogging the pasture near the fenced corners.

Weak front axle?? They all are.


Big Al

Heck, I have been driving tractors for over fifty years and I still wrestle with the whole filled tires/wheel weights issue, so don't feel bad. We filled ours on the M8540 for added stability in our hills on side slopes. On our flat land farm, I think we only have one with fluid.

I strongly suggest/advise taking the FEL off while bush hogging if possible. It is hard to imagine not only the maneuverability, but ride comfort. The FEL on these models will take only a few minutes. We can have ours off in under five minutes.

 

[ovrszd]

Are you missing the point about keeping the rear end of the tractor on the ground? Several of us have said the bigger issue is keeping the rear tires down...

No, I think Reg gets it completely. He's just commenting about those saying their front axle needs relief. I agree with Reg, don't see much gain in adding weight stress to the rear of the tractor in an attempt to relieve weight stress on the front.

Now, in TripleR's case I also agree with him. He says he can't fully use his FEL without ballast on the rear, even with filled/weighted tires.

In regards to filled tires or wheel weights, that creates what we call in the Jeep world "unsprung weight". That's the most efficient form of weight gain and does the most to lower Center of Gravity and create stability. Sometimes Jeepers will purposely use heavy wheel/tire combinations to do just that. I went from a set of light radial tires to a set of heavy 6ply Super Swamper TSLs and noticed a dramatic difference in stability. Same thing happens when fluid/weights are added. The gain is maximized because it's unsprung and always pushing down on the tire. A 3pt attachment in the wrong situation will magnify the tipping fear.

I use filled tires in my tractors. I would use wheel weights if I could find a set that were cost effective. In the case of my L4400, filled tires almost perfectly match my loaders lift ability. The tractor is very stable in everything except stupidly steep situations without 3pt ballast. I also don't think my loader will lift a load heavier than the capacity of my front axle so no worries there.

 

[rjkobbeman]

No, I think Reg gets it completely. He's just commenting about those saying their front axle needs relief. I agree with Reg, don't see much gain in adding weight stress to the rear of the tractor in an attempt to relieve weight stress on the front.

Now, in TripleR's case I also agree with him. He says he can't fully use his FEL without ballast on the rear, even with filled/weighted tires.

In regards to filled tires or wheel weights, that creates what we call in the Jeep world "unsprung weight". That's the most efficient form of weight gain and does the most to lower Center of Gravity and create stability. Sometimes Jeepers will purposely use heavy wheel/tire combinations to do just that. I went from a set of light radial tires to a set of heavy 6ply Super Swamper TSLs and noticed a dramatic difference in stability. Same thing happens when fluid/weights are added. The gain is maximized because it's unsprung and always pushing down on the tire. A 3pt attachment in the wrong situation will magnify the tipping fear.

I use filled tires in my tractors. I would use wheel weights if I could find a set that were cost effective. In the case of my L4400, filled tires almost perfectly match my loaders lift ability. The tractor is very stable in everything except stupidly steep situations without 3pt ballast. I also don't think my loader will lift a load heavier than the capacity of my front axle so no worries there.

But don't forget, the rear of a tractor is designed to carry much, much more weight than the front. In smaller tractors, where the front axles seem to be even more "fragile", the rear can still take the weight.

Agree on the unsprung weigt comment... although in a tractor, the WHOLE tractor is unsprung weight. (Not a Jeep thing.)

I don't have weighted tires -- I prefer to use my ballast box. But you're right, running with a 3ph ballast box up high can really change the center of gravity - and not to the good!

 

[ovrszd]

Agree on the unsprung weigt comment... although in a tractor, the WHOLE tractor is unsprung weight. (Not a Jeep thing.)

For clarity, unsprung weight is weight carried by the tire/wheel combination with no additional weight stress on the drivetrain, i.e., wheelbearings, axle shaft if so designed and suspension if so designed. So in fact, unsprung weight applies to tractors as well. The weight of the tractor's tire/wheel combinations are not applying stress to those components and is commonly called "unsprung weight". This is what Reg was getting at when he said you add somewhere around 1000lbs to the stress on the rear mechanicals to relieve somewhere around 375lbs from the front mechanicals. Not a very good payoff unless you are in the situation that TripleR describes with his tractor.

 

[TripleR]

This is an interesting thread. I am probably influenced by my background and what I see out by my house all the time, but the issue of too much weight on the front axle has never been one of my concerns. Like I have said previously, it takes two kids and a trained monkey to get the FEL off our 86 MF 375, so it has rarely been off and we have never had any problems with the front axle components in spite of some really heavy use. Our 98 CX80 FEL was a POS and about the only time it was off when it fell of

Our Kubotas are very different animals.

I realize this is not an apples to apples comparison, but this picture is what all the tractors around here look like and I rarely see anything on the 3-point. I have never seen anyone take weights off when the put a FEL on.

 

[rjkobbeman]

For clarity, unsprung weight is weight carried by the tire/wheel combination with no additional weight stress on the drivetrain, i.e., wheelbearings, axle shaft if so designed and suspension if so designed. So in fact, unsprung weight applies to tractors as well. The weight of the tractor's tire/wheel combinations are not applying stress to those components and is commonly called "unsprung weight". This is what Reg was getting at when he said you add somewhere around 1000lbs to the stress on the rear mechanicals to relieve somewhere around 375lbs from the front mechanicals. Not a very good payoff unless you are in the situation that TripleR describes with his tractor.

My point was on a tractor there is no suspension... so the entire tractor is unprung weight. Only where there is a suspension is there "sprung" and "unsprung" weight. Where there is no suspension, there is only unsprung weight. My other point was that unsprung weight is a term not invented by nor used specifically by Jeep owners.... which this comment kind of suggested: "... that creates what we call in the Jeep world "unsprung weight" " I say this not to be a jerk, but to help others who may be trying to understand some of this. Often these threads take a life of their own...

Also, I would say adding weight to the rear mechanicals is not an issue. That is the working end of the tractor. A couple thousand pounds of dead weight does not begin to compare the forces from say a ground engaging implement.

 

[SPYDERLK]

In regards to filled tires or wheel weights, that creates what we call in the Jeep world "unsprung weight". That's the most efficient form of weight gain and does the most to lower Center of Gravity and create stability. Sometimes Jeepers will purposely use heavy wheel/tire combinations to do just that. I went from a set of light radial tires to a set of heavy 6ply Super Swamper TSLs and noticed a dramatic difference in stability. Same thing happens when fluid/weights are added. The gain is maximized because it's unsprung and always pushing down on the tire.

Stability - yes, if the speed is low and/or the terrain is smooth. OTOH, Handling/stability over bumps at some speed will become increasingly dangerous as unsprung weight increases. On an on/off road jeep Id be worried.
larry

 

[Snapper Head]

I strongly suggest/advise taking the FEL off while bush hogging if possible. It is hard to imagine not only the maneuverability, but ride comfort. The FEL on these models will take only a few minutes. We can have ours off in under five minutes.

Roger on that TR. I kept it on initially because I was unsure of how things would feel on 'the hills', and wanted to keep the bucket low. I have 3 very small 'hills' (more like ramps) that I have to mow, but they are fairly steep, and I don't cross mow, only straight up and straight down. I will have some time this coming weekend to take the FEL off and check out the difference in feel. I reckon some front weights are in the future sooner than I thought...


Big Al