Basic Snowplow float question

[ElBarranco]

This is a question that's been addressed in other threads, but I"m still not clear on the answer.

I just got a Virnig 96" snowplow for my L48. … Virnig Manufacturing …

The dealer convinced me it was a great, well built unit. I have a Virning 4-in-1 bucker which I really like, so I went along.

My problem is with the float. This unit has none. I asked about that when I bought the thing, and the salesman told me it had plenty of float, but I think he was talking about left-right tilt float. When I plow with it I cannot get it to cut deep enough without lifting my front wheels off the ground. I have irregular gravel surfaces to plow - roads & driveway. The thing feels like a dozer blade, except the cutting edge can trip. I'm used to plows which hang from a chain so they can ride over irregular dips and rises. The problem I have when I try plowing my road is the plow suddenly hits a rise in the road, jams the front wheels off the ground and sends my flying sideways.

If I use the float position on my FEL the plow digs too deep. If I try to curl the blade up so it doesn't cut into the road the bottom of the loader arms dig into the snow. Seems to be no way to position the plow so the skid feet are holding the cutting edge just off the road surface.

I've read in other threads that some really like the no-float-except-FEL-float design. Do I simply not know how to operate this thing (always likely)? Or is it possible it just isn't a good match for my L48 and my gravel road? When I bought it there was a regular, chain-float unit right next to this one, but the salesman convinced me the Virnig was the better unit.

I've had a bit of trouble with the valves on the L48, and overall am not particularly happy with the service of my dealer. I'm wondering if this is just another case of him pulling a fast one on me. He said this is the first year they've carried Virnig plows, so I should have been wary, I suppose.

Thanks for any advice.

-robert

 

[zzvyb6]

Try backing up on the drive until the gravel gets more regular. The time to do this was before it froze and snowed. Use a large yaw angle on the blade so it slices the ice and snow instead of trying to chip it. My loader valve floats my unit perfectly. The blade is actually tipped upwards i.e. the bottom edge is forward of the top edge. This snaps the gravel upwards instead of trying to bury it. Set the slippers so the blade is just a bit above the riding surface.

 

[ElBarranco]

Thanks for the reply.

I wonder if my shoes/slippers are just too short. The salesman gave me extra washers for spacers, but even with those I can't get the slippers to settle on the roadway before the loader arms hit.

The road was in decent condition before winter. I worked on it quite a bit this summer. The problem is really the lie of the land.

I gather your plow is fixed to the loader arms, and all the float comes from the loader. My plow weights over 1,000 lbs, and the arms themselves are pretty heavy. I wonder if I've got too much weight?

thanks again,
-robert

 

[zzvyb6]

I no longer use the loader arms for snow plow application. The blade is too far forward of the tractor's c.g. That makes it difficult tokeep straight. I now use an old Fisher plow from a PU track. I dropped 2 arms forward from the MM mower porkchops and attached it there. I use the up/down circuit for blade up/down and curl for swing to left or right. Runs straight and true plus excellant snow throw.

Note my avator shows th setup.

 

[dirtworksequip]

ElB, it would be very difficult to run a blade in the float position on a stone road or driveway. It will always have the tendency to dig in. I'd suggest you run with the blade just above the stone removing the bulk of the snow and then finish up with a landscape rake if you have one. This way once the majority of the snow is off the roadway you can remove almost all the rest with the rake. The bonuses to this method is you will be popping up some stone for added traction plus grooming the road to a smoother surface by taking off the high spots.

Sincerely, Dirt

 

[6sunset6]

I no longer use the loader arms for snow plow application. The blade is too far forward of the tractor's c.g. That makes it difficult tokeep straight. I now use an old Fisher plow from a PU track. I dropped 2 arms forward from the MM mower porkchops and attached it there. I use the up/down circuit for blade up/down and curl for swing to left or right. Runs straight and true plus excellant snow throw.

Note my avator shows th setup.

I have the same problem . I use a plow on a QA , no mechanical float. If I use the FEL Float it won't steer. I have to raise the loader arms to keep some weight on the front tires. works ok but float would be better.
I wonder if I added weight to the front would it help. I have a couple of suitcase weights someplace.

 

[Ford850]

I have a Hiniker 7 1/2 foot blade on my loader. It does have a float chain so I do not have to let the loader arms float. I have a gravel drive, and with the shoes dropped below the blade edge, they just plow through the gravel from the weight of the floating blade, and the blade ends up plowing gravel anyway. You should be able to level your bucket indicator and still have enough shoe spacers to keep the blade 2 inches off the surface (on hard surfaces). If you don't, you can pick up spacers somewhere, as they are pretty standard. I think TSC carries them too. I just came in from plowing my drive, and I use Dirtworkshops method of trying to skim just above the gravel. It takes a lot of attention to the contours of the drive, and I have to nudge the loader up and down the whole trip, but it works fairly well. Some protions of the drive are harder packed and I can let the shoes float on that. I also have a 100' or so concrete portion to the drive and the blade works perfect on that.
Overall it is a decent set up, with the option to drop the quick attach snow blade and put the bucket on to move large piles or drifts when needed. I'm looking forward to more snows so I can practice more.

 

[number two]

Up here in snow country,anyone plowing gravel or dirt surfaces throw away the shoes and get a pipe. 1" or maybe 1 1/4" pipe and cut a slit in it,so it fits over the cutting edge of the plow blade. Of course figure out a way to secure it to the plow. The round pipe greatly reduces the tendency of the plow to dig in. After several weeks of cold and the ground gets frozen,take it off and run without shoes,letting the cutting edge scrape the ground clean. Weather warms up? Slip the pipe back on. I've had a mild winter where the pipe stayed on all winter. Even had one made for my front snowblower on my previous Kubota. Bought a new tractor with blower this year and am having the same problems as you. The ground is getting pretty hard so I'm having better luck. Sure hated to gouge up that new blower with gravel though. Wondering why I don't have a pipe for the new blower? My friend has been over twice taking measurements and left 8 days ago saying he'd weld up the mounting tabs and drop it off the next night after work. Of course I haven't seen it. I wonder if I shouldn't have given him those two cases of beer before he was finished? Seriously,the pipe thing does work very well for us. Perhaps it would for you. Good Luck!

 

[number two]

To clarify the last post,operate the plow with pipe in float position! Sorry

 

[ElBarranco]

I like the pipe idea. Can see rigging that up eventually, after I get the right plow figured out.

I understand that even with a "chain float" I'd have to feather the controls. I plow with my RTV also (works great, just takes too long) and I have to raise and lower the plow as the road dips and rises.

However, I'm thinking that there may be some mismatch between the Virnig plow I was sold and my L48. I spent a few hours today experimenting, and trying some of the things I've learned here. Here's what I found out:

1. To have the plow not dig in, I've got to have it curled back quite a bit. The curl is similar to when I'm scraping with my bucket - just a little too far forward and the edge will dig in badly. However, when adjusted so the curl is right the loader arms keep the blade from getting close enough to the road surface. I get loader arm drag marks but not good snow removal. I think the plow geometry might work with a real skid steer - those arms come more straight down, my loader arms stick out horizontally at the end. The shoes aren't even close to touching the gravel even with extra spacers.

2. Most plows I know of trip either the whole plow or the bottom half. This plow just trips the bottom about 4 inches, mostly the cutting edge. But it trips way too easily - just pushing regular snow will cause it to trip. Once it trips the cutting edge extends a couple of inches below it's rest position, so even if I have the plow running just right over the surface, a moderate snow load will trip the cutting edge, causing it to drop a couple of inches and dig into the road bed. Once that happens, I lose front traction and if the blade is angled at all the tractor takes a quick right or left turn and the whole operation grinds to a halt while I regroup.

3. When the cutting edge trips it frequently gets a rock in it which prevents it from snapping back, even once I release the pressure. Then I've got to dismount, get a big bar to pry the gap open a bit more, get the rock loose, pull the bar out, mount up and start again. Uuuggh!

4. If I get everything lined up just right and push a decent, but not huge, load of snow, the right-left angle cylinder doesn't hold the plow in position. If I'm pushing with the blade just a bit angled to the right, once a get a nice push going the cylinder will give and let the blade angle all the way to the right. Sometimes it just stays right until I release the load. Other times it dumps the load off to the right, and then jumps back near straight, only to repeat again in 10 or 20 feet or so. This seems to me to be a problem with design - maybe the cylinder isn't strong enough?

I'm going to call the dealer first thing in the morning and ask if they will swap out for a unit which works well with my L48. Although there is plenty of room for operator improvement, I think there is a real mismatch between my L48 and the plow. I also think the plow design may have flaws.

thanks for all the help everyone,
-robert

 

[radman1]

Something just doesn't seem right. The blade should not angle by itself when pushing a load, regardless of how much snow your pushing. The geometry with the loader arms are also off. The blade needs to tip back enough to ride on the shoes, whether in float mode or if just skimming the surface. Teh front edge of the shoes are slightly tipped back relative to the back of the shoe. What you describe is the blade is tipped forward so the loader arms don't scrape on the road surface. If tipped forward, the shoes won't ride over the suface. Also if tipped forward, the blade can easily catch the surface or an obstacle and trip the bottom which only compounds you problem.
I fabricated a used Meyer snowplow design for a pickup on the front of my tractor. It is held up by a chain. It can float over the terrain. The FEL arms are left up slightly (nonfloat) but the chain is kept slack.
Take to the dealer if possible and see if they can help get is set properly.

 

[PILOON]

I ran into same problem and my analysis is that the push forces are against the loader arms pivot point which is up at about dash height.
What is needed is a straight line push eg front axel height.
If the pivot is above the axle you will tend to dig in until the weight of snow equals the front end weight and you jack.
Narurally before you actually jack you are getting lighter and hence no steering.
If the pivot is lower the blade will ride up un the snow.

As a result I designed a plow and frame for my CUT that allows me to push snow with plow angled with the throttle wide open in 3rd gear!

Here is link to the project:
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/build-yourself/66045-snow-plow-my-mt180d-2.html#post1285466

Today we have recieved over a foot of that white stuff and again I could plow full tilt with positive steering and not trip the blade nor dig it in, and my drive is asphalt on the hilly part and gravel on the flats.
Also I have no shoes or skids under the blade, I do however have ladder chains on the rear wheels and mostly push the plow in 2 wheel drive (to 'save' my front differential).

I recall 'back when' where some guys mounted a plow onto two 3" 'I' beams that were butted back onto the rear axel housings of the old ford tractors.
The well made ones kinda looked like a gun stock end (curved 'hook') that merely hung off of the rear axel housing.
Naturally that frame was a kinda 'ladder' to keep things aligned properly.
Also with that arrangement you do not need to remouve the FEL assy, merely raise it to clear the plow rack assy and lift can be accomplished with a length of chain attached to the FEL bucket.

It is "straight line push" that is the answer no matter how you achieve it.

My arrangement allows me to bulldose snowpiles that are even 4ft high off ti the side out of the way for next snow falls.

 

[Ford850]

ElBarranco,
The angle you have to set your blade doesn't sound right. Even on a skid steer, the quick attach plate should be vertical the same as your loader is. I'd have your dealer take a look to be sure.
The trip function on your blade sounds unique. Usually there is a trip pressure setting. Maybe your's can be adjusted to a stiffer setting.
The cylinder issue sounds like there is a relief setting that is too light. usually these settings are there to protect your loader arms or the blade so they give before twisting something. Obviously you are no where near damaging anything when your relief gives way.
I'd start with the dealer, and if you don't get good answers I'd call the manufacturer. I can't see how that plow would work on an agressive skid steer if it doesn't work well on a tractor loader. There are other brands out there to try if that doesn't work out. Hiniker and Curtis are two that are available in my area.

 

[ElBarranco]

I just spoke with the dealer. He's going to bring an 8' Hiniker as soon as he can get a truck. I'm expecting that one will work much better for me. Dealer didn't give me any pushback, didn't even sound surprised. I suppose they will take these issues up with Virnig. Back to the drawing board (CAD shop) perhaps?

Thanks everyone for educating me. Gave me the confidence to suggest something just wasn't right, and ask them to give me a different unit. I think I'll be happy with the Hiniker.

thanks,
-robert

 

[Ford850]

I still like the pipe idea for the cutting edge. How would you cut a slot in a pipe like that? I'm wondering if I could make up a replacement cutting edge out of soft steel, and weld a length of pipe along the bottom edge without having to cut a slot in it. I would replace the factory edge, but could switch back if needed. Or maybe just weld tabs along a pipe that would lay in front of the cutting edge and line up with the cutting edge bolts. 3 or 4 tabs would probably hold it.

 

[ElBarranco]

My plow issue has been resolved. The dealer loaded a Hiniker 8' right onto his truck and rushed it over to me. That is a great fit for my L48. Behaves just the way I expect in a plow. I still have a learning curve, but I'm not getting thrown around and chewing up my driveway the way I was with the Virnig. Really moves snow, too.

Looks like we've got another storm on the way, so I'll be giving the thing a real test in a few days.

thanks again for all the guidance,
-robert

 

[kennyd]

Glad you got it resolved

Just proves that no matter what the color is, it's the dealer that makes or breaks your satisfaction.