Battery

[Richard]

Wife bought 4 new tires at Tire America... (I think that was name... the place Sears owns).

After purchase, she got a coupon for a new Diehard battery, something like up to a 50 or 60 $$ value. Does NOT have to go on "her' car...

Brutus needs a battery.

After talking to the dude at the store, he says they do not have a "car" battery that will work..fine, however, they can order in a 1,000 cca battery for me that is either for trucks or "heavy" heavy duty... (Brutus needs minimum 750 cca, but am currently utilizing the BRAND new battery we had in boat which is smaller than 750)

Anyway..

Called store back to double check "value" of coupon and got different sales guy who is saying that I should NOT use ANY of their batterys (even the 1,000 cca) as they are not made for this type machinery and the vibrations that Brutus will dish out will prematurely wear out the plates inside the battery. They could only sell a battery like that with no warranty because of the use. He further said I need to go to the dealer and get a "dealer" battery.

Though I can't dispute the vibrations that Brutus will dish out, the demeanor of his voice struck me as "I don't want to help you, I don't want to lift a finger to find this 1,000 cca battery in my book, I don't want to see you benefit from this coupon"

I may certainly be wrong, maybe he was absolutely right in what he said... I was in retail sales once, and did not shy away from trying to tell someone the "harsh reality" when they were selecting what I felt to be a piece of junk (as evidenced by the items high return rate) and essentially told them I'd rather sell them nothing as to see them have issues, or preferably, have them upgrade to a better brand. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

He MIGHT have just been honest, however, he had no "better brand" idea for me.. just tried to kill the thought of my sale and get off phone.

Soooo....

I have to believe that Diehard makes all types of batteries. I'm not against going to dealer for "their" battery, but who is to say that it's not made by same folks that make Diehard? /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif.

I like the idea of saving $50/60 and if the 1,000 cca battery will suffice, I kind of like the idea of buying it for 30/40 out of pocket.

What say the brain trust on "vibrations causing premature battery failure"??

Thanks & Happy/safe holidays to all

Richard

 

[JerryG]

Richard,
I thought that Sears use to have a group of batteries for heavy duty use. Did the book not show them or did the sales people not look for you? They do have the Optima style batteries that would work well.

 

[Boondox]

Richard -- Ditto on the Optima; my local Sears carries them and they are very highly regarded. As for the vibration, I bought a DieHard battery for my ATV through Sears, and if ever there was a four wheeled device designed to vibrate a battery that would be the one. just my $0.02.

Pete

 

[Egon]

Battery types.
Somewhere I recall reading there are only three manufacture's in the US but who makes what or how the construction is specified by the distributor was not mentioned. Just some useless trivia.

Diehards have always servrd me well.

Egon

 

[centex]

Richard, I had similar experience(s) with Sears in trying to buy a Diehard battery for my Corvette. They would only talk to you when you gave them the make and model of the car and then they told me that they did not make a battery for the Corvette and that I could not buy a battery from them to put in it because it would be a safety hazzard. Basically they refused to sell me a battery period. I tried several different stores and got the same response. The safety hazzard was supposedly that since the battery is inside the drivers compartment it has to have a vent hose to the outside of the car to keep hydrogen gas from building up in the car. This is BS because the car came from GM with a non-vented Delco battery and I have had non-vented batteries in it for over 30 years now. I think they must have been sued or had a lawyer tell them that they could be sued back in the 60's. Anyway that is one of the reasons that I stopped shopping at Sears many, many years ago. I don't think you would have a vibration problem with a diehard battery as long as it is not a side post battery. The side post batteries are notorious for breaking the post internally due to vibration. This is not unique to Diehard. The Corvette uses a sidepost battery and when they replaced the hard rubber cases with the cheap plastic, I could not get a battery to last more than two years no matter what I paid for it so I started buying the cheapest batteries they made since they provided the same 18-24 month life. Now they make the batteries with combination side posts and top posts. This has seemed to solve the vibration problem.

If you want to get the free Diehard battery from Sears you will have to find a make and model of car that the one you want goes in and tell them it is for that car otherwise they will give you a battery to go in your tractor.

 

[TWINKLE_TOES]

<font color=blue>"vibrations causing premature battery failure"</font color=blue>
In general flooded cell batteries are more prone to failure than sealed (gel) batteries in a vibration environment. Also in general, sealed (gel) batteries have lower CCA ratings than flooded batteries. Optima (sealed) battery CCA ratings are comparable to flooded cell batteries. The Optima Red in the 75/35 case size has a CCA rating of 720 amps. The reserve capacity of 44AH is significantly less than a similar flooded cell battery. Don made an excellent point on side mount terminals, in addition shy away from the "dual terminal" top mount designs where the screw terminal is not integral with the stud (Excide gold for example). The cost differential (COSTCO) of the Optima Red vs an equivalent flooded cell with similar CCA is about twice. The Optima web site states "see dealer for warrenty". It does tout it use in high vibration applications. <A target="_blank" HREF=http://"vibrations causing premature battery failure">Optima</A>

I don't think Brutus would beat a battery around any more than than a country road does to my truck battery.

 

[karmakanic]

There are a couple of reasons you might want to go with the correct battery for your tractor. One is cycle time between recharging. Tractor batteries are deep cycle batteries. They are designed to tolerate sitting for extended periods without damaging their plates from sulfation. Automotive batteries are not. The salesman may of been reluctant to sell the battery cause he figured you'd be bringing it back in a year or so for warranty.

Another aspect to consider is that CCA is only one measure of battery performance. Often times the batteries that are advertised with a high CCA have a relatively low amount of reserve power. Meaning they can deliver that high CCA for just a short period of time. Reserve power is important for a diesel because of the high current draw of the glow plugs and the longer cranking time and the higher current draw of a diesel starter.

FWIW,
Dave

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the idea of an Optima battery. A local battery dealer handles them but doesn't recommend them (for the money) so I've taken his advice. I think we may worry far more about vibration damage than we should. I've used the more conventional style batteries with no vibration failures, but that's just me.

I have a couple of questions here and hope the answers will help you decide what to do. First, is there a marine starting battery which carries the Diehard label? Marine batteries are designed to take shocks and vibrations so if you can get one with your coupon it should allay your vibration concerns.

Second, doesn't the Diehard have a good warranty? If it does, how concerned about premature failure should you be?

As to buying marine batteries, I do have one cautionary tale. I bought a marine battery from my battery guy for my trailer and it was a straight deep cycle marine battery and inappropriate for the task. They took it back and gave me a marine starting battery which has been outstanding.

 

[TWINKLE_TOES]

Gary,
I'm a little puzzled?? In an application where the battery receives no charge during extended use as in your winch application. How is a deep cycle battery totally inappropriate and a starting battery (not deep cycle) outstanding?

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

Perhaps I should have been more clear in describing the battery I have now. I described it as a marine starting battery, which, while true, isn't totally accurate. The battery I'm using currently (no pun intended) is a 1000 CCA marine deep cycle/starting battery and NOT a straight starting battery or a non-deep cycle marine starting battery (if such a thing exists). Let me say I'm no battery expert here and am only going to attempt to parrot back what my battery guy told me.

I'm told that while marine batteries are typically deep cycle, not all are designed for use as starting batteries. My understanding is that deep cycle batteries (marine or not) are designed to sit for longer periods unused and are designed to operate without constant charging from an alternator.

The ones which are designed for that deep cycle use as well as starting use are able to withstand the high drain, short use bursts of a starter. A starter motor is exactly what is used to power my hydraulic tilt bed mechanism on my trailer so the match is obvious.

I hope this answers your question. I apologize for not stating fully the type of battery I have in my earlier post. I made what may well have been an error in assuming that all marine batteries are deep cycle. If that is not the case then I certainly should have used the term "marine deep cycle/starting battery" instead of "marine starting battery" as I did.

 

[TWINKLE_TOES]

I gotcha. Thanks for explanation. West Marine and other sell a line of "Dual-Purpose" deep cycle batteries optimized for high CCA and reserve capacity.
<font color=blue>I'm no battery expert </font color=blue> Maybe so, but I think your doing a darn good job of getting a good system put together for your trailer and you have a real good handle on battery types and uses. I agree with you on the Optima battery also. I will wait until some service history supports their claims before I invest in the big $$$.

 

[Mark_in_NH]

If the battery is free or even a very minimal cost.
Get the heaviest rated / best suited battery that the coupon will allow you to get, and run it !!!!!!!!!

I personally would not put a lot of faith in anything Sears told me when it comes to batterys. Here's why.
About a month ago I was headed into the lake front development where some of my clients live. I crested the hill to find one of the homeowners trying to jump start a fairly new Ford Ranger with his full size Chevy 4x4 with no luck.
We tried everything, but the ranger just wouldn't turn over.
I figured it was a combination of his cheap cables and side terminal GM battery. So I got out my Very good cables. Still nothing.
So I moved my truck into position, hooked My cables to my battery and the Ranger started immediatly. Situation over, everybody goes home.
About a week later the man with the full size chevy is walking his dog, so I stopped to chat and he tells me they found out why his battery would not start the Ranger.
About a year ago when he had the electric snow plow installed on his truck he had SEARS install a second battery in his truck, he figured that having the extra power couldn't hurt.
SEARS hooked up the new / secondary battery to the WRONG terminal, on the new terminal block, they installed in order to tie the 2 battery's together.
So for the whole year he was running on his original battery only and the new / secondary one just sat there till it went dead. No wonder that battery wouldn't start the Ranger. He had one of the local garages install a new battery into the secondary slot, move the cable over one terminal on the block and now the system is working and charging as designed.
I know I can't really blame the whole sears corporation because of 1 or 2 absent minded mechanics, but tho whole thing left a sour taste in my mouth for sears, at least the automotive division.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

My position on Sears and their batterys is very simple, Sears exists cause the government can't employ ALL tie idiots in the world.
Sears batterys are cheap junk! They count on the law of averages and stupid customers who are willing to pay ridiculous pro rated warranty charges to keep selling batterys.
Deep cycle batterys are built to deliver a constant current for an extended time.
Starting batterys are built to deliver maximum current for a short time period.
Neither design has anything to do with time cycle between charging and discharging.
Optima now appears to be another Interstate product, as they are a listed product on Interstate's web page. My opinion of Interstate isn't much better than my opinion of DieHards. Both were once good batterys, but both got too large of a market share and quit building decent batterys.
The vibration factor on a CUT isn't much different than the vibration factor on an automobile. These machines aren't in the same catagory as OTR trucks or earthmovers.
The major cause of battery failure for the last 10 years has been poor intercell connectors. They are both undersized and poorly connected.

 

[justractors]

We have 64 batteries in service on the golf course where I work, not counting the electric golf cart fleet. Most are in equipment that not only vibrates a lot but also vibrates up to thirty hours a week.
All of the replacement batteries in the parts room are Interstate batteries. They bring them to us on consignment, we pay only when we use them, they swap them out semi-annually when we don't use them, and they stand behind their warranty. I only stock top terminal batteries and simply convert any side mounted hookups to top mounts
I will not use a "temporary" terminal and everything is soldered in including any and all splices.
Also I always put in the battery with the most CCAs that will fit in the hole.
Grass doesn't stop growing because the mowers won't start.

Bill

 

[Mark_in_NH]

<font color=red>My position on Sears and their batterys is very simple, Sears exists cause the government can't employ ALL tie idiots in the world.
Sears batterys are cheap junk! They count on the law of averages and stupid customers who are willing to pay ridiculous pro rated warranty charges to keep selling batterys.
</font color=red>

Geez Franz,
Don't be bashfull, Tell us how you really feel. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[RobertN]

I'm like an exact opposite to you/w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif

I have run Optima's as has my Brother in law. In my case, I had the red-top in my old F250. It lasted well, till I sold the truck. It was about six years old, and worked great still. I ran with the camper for a while, with only one batterry. I pushed that thing to run the camper, AND start the truck. I did eventually add a deep cycle in the camper with a battery isolator.

Randy has had his yellow tops(what I'll put in my Kubota when I need a new battery) for over eight years now. He runs duals in his Jeep. He has done serious winching with them, as well as runninf offroad light(he actually uses he off road lights, unlike most who add them for looks and a ride down an easy trail once every ten years). He's run the offroad lights with the winch a number of times while wheeling at night.

He also had a winch power cable rub through on the body a couple years ago; it made massive sparks and smole till they got the bateries disconnected. He made field repairs, got in, and fired righ up. Those batteries put a lot of power out fast, but still work great.

In his case, he can charge them well too. He has the Premier welder with low rpm, hi-current alternator. It's made to charge while running low rpm during rock crawling expeditions.

The Optima's are more expensive, but from what I have seen, they tend to last a long time too. And, you do not have to worry about it leaking.

As your dealer mentioned, they are expensive. But, when put in the environment they were designed for, they seem to work great.

As a side note, all the Medic units in the local fire district run optima's(heavy lighting loads). So do the Battalion Chief's rigs, since they have additional radios and put them to heavy use in big incidents.

Of course, this is all IMHO/w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

<font color=blue>I'm like an exact opposite to you</font color=blue>

Young, short, thin, undereducated and bald with a real job? /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Sorry...just couldn't resist. /w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif Seriously, I don't have any experience with Optimas and never claimed to have any. I only repeated what the dealer who handles them here told me. I don't know one way or the other.

If you've had good luck with them, then, by all means, continue to use them in equipment you're looking keep. I'd heard of them on TBN so called the guy here who handles them, told him of my application and he recommended against one and I took his advise. I didn't see much future in resolving any problems with them if I bought a battery he recommended against. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[bgott]

Maybe the reason that dealer doesn't like those Optimas is that the profit margin isn't as high as it is on the wet cell batteries.

 

[RobertN]

<font color=blue>Young, short, thin, undereducated and bald with a real job?
</font color=blue>
Oh man, way off /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif Is late 30's young? Tall, thin except around the central beer storage area,, educated enough to be dangerous, and left the big stress corporate job to do a small business with my wife who also just left corporate stress job(we are doing a small landscape business, and specialize in edible plantings).

I actually do not have any Optima's now. The car uses an odd size battery. The truck is only a year and a half old, so it has original batteries. The tractor, well the battery died a few years ago, and I replaced it with a regular battery, mostly because the only Optima battery dealer is 35 miles away, in bad traffic; I needed it running right away.

The Harley's, we put in Harley branded gel cells. They are lasting much better. Not sure the real brand though.

Yes, it is hard to explain when you return something that they recomended against. They tend to look at ya kinda with a odd expression(not look at you personally, but at people who do that, if that makes sense).

By the way, how did the trailering of the car go? I didn't catch the follow up to that?

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

Robert,

I noted one thing on which we definitely differ. I'm a Goldwing guy from way back. I just prefer the comfort and reliability.

As to "the car trailering," I think you may have me confused with someone else who was trailering their Corvette to a buyer somewhere. I offered them some advice on securing the car safely to the trailer.

I have a tilt bed trailer and haul cars (actually trucks) quite often with no problems. That's where I use my 1000 CCA Marine deep cycle/starting battery. I bought the trailer used and have enjoyed upgrading it with new wiring, LED lights (which I highly recommend), a new 7,000 lb. drop jack and some additional attachment points on the steel diamond plate floor (there is no such thing as too many attachment points).

A guy who works for me is enjoying teasing my about my "Million dollar trailer" now. I recently bought a new 8,000 lb. winch, a couple Geneva top load tool boxes with diamond plate tops and sides and a new pair of diamond plate fenders. I'm afraid I'm going to have to wait until it gets warmer here before I can install those as it's a bit cold for welding in an unheated space. /w3tcompact/icons/sad.gif

The good news is that will probably happen about the time I'm getting through with my MIG welding class so I'll be able to MIG weld it all myself. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif/w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif