"Best" synthetic hydraulic fluid for the money?
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J_J
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KMA said:Thanks JJ.
I saw that one the other day. It happens to be written by the same guy that replied to my H-ZOL additive email (see above). He works at SFR Corp.
What this amounts to , is that if you are going to be adding additives, you need to be well educated in oil chemistry. These company's spend millions trying to get things right, but from that article, they just only meet minimums. So in my opinion, it's best to stick to the manufactures recommendations. I was even thinking about going to 30W non-detergent oil since I am in Florida. The hydraulics experts say that detergent oils should not be used in hydraulic systems, because it will emulsify and blend in any moisture/water that gets in the hydraulic system. Sure I am taking a risk, but if any water gets in the system, I would like it to settle on the bottom so I could drain it out. I am sure the additives in motor oil and hydraulic are different, but no one seems to have an answer for the { BEST } product for the systems. Look at all the selections that you can choose from. Every one of them say that their products are the best. Probably the best solution is filter, filter, filter, maybe even to use a bypass filter at a smaller micron to further clean the system.
An analogy might be to cola drinks. There are a bunch of them with different property's, but what it all comes down to is taste. Even though diet colas might be better for you, your choice would still be about taste.
Thanks JJ.
The way I interpreted the article was that oil companies have no real incentive to do better than the minimum requirements, and auto manufacturers (for example) may actually want them to do just that. They want their machines to be reliable up to a point, but would prefer you buy a new one eventually. A similar argument could be made for the consumer electronics industry... do you remember when TVs lasted for 20 years? Now we're lucky if they make it a year past their warranty period.
Another point of the article was that you should only "trust" additives from the bigger players in the industry. They've spent a lot of money and time working on them, and have specific products to cover different applications. The author lists the companies he feels qualify. Some of the companies making the additives are actually owned by the big oil manufacturers. He argues they would not make the additive products if their oil was fine to begin with. The oil companies could (and sometimes do) offer a more complete product with an optimum selection of additives for a given system, but they'd rather market many different levels of products and separate additives.
When I contacted them, the article's author replied claiming the H-Zol product would work well when combined with synthetic motor oil in a tractor's hydraulic system.
According to SFR's website, H-Zol has the following benefits:
Maximizes Hydraulic System Life
Extends Drain Intervals
Excellent Thermal Stability
Improved Cold Weather Performance
Outstanding Pump Protection
Protects against Corrosion from Condensation
The question is whether we believe their claims or not. I plan to buy a single quart to use in my PT. The amount is bit less than what was recommended, but I'm hoping the $25 or so spent will ease my mind a little. Right now, it's probably going to be Rotella T 5w40 + H-Zol. I feel this is a much better than OEM solution, that won't break the bank. Rotella T can be found at Walmart and is comparably cheap. It may not be quite as good as Amsoil and Mobil 1 from a pure synthetic standpoint, but I'll be able to change the oil nearly twice as often for the same cost. Changing it more often should help combat dirt, etc in the system. A filter cart might also help extend draining intervals a bit further.
The way I interpreted the article was that oil companies have no real incentive to do better than the minimum requirements, and auto manufacturers (for example) may actually want them to do just that. They want their machines to be reliable up to a point, but would prefer you buy a new one eventually. A similar argument could be made for the consumer electronics industry... do you remember when TVs lasted for 20 years? Now we're lucky if they make it a year past their warranty period.
Another point of the article was that you should only "trust" additives from the bigger players in the industry. They've spent a lot of money and time working on them, and have specific products to cover different applications. The author lists the companies he feels qualify. Some of the companies making the additives are actually owned by the big oil manufacturers. He argues they would not make the additive products if their oil was fine to begin with. The oil companies could (and sometimes do) offer a more complete product with an optimum selection of additives for a given system, but they'd rather market many different levels of products and separate additives.
When I contacted them, the article's author replied claiming the H-Zol product would work well when combined with synthetic motor oil in a tractor's hydraulic system.
According to SFR's website, H-Zol has the following benefits:
Maximizes Hydraulic System Life
Extends Drain Intervals
Excellent Thermal Stability
Improved Cold Weather Performance
Outstanding Pump Protection
Protects against Corrosion from Condensation
The question is whether we believe their claims or not. I plan to buy a single quart to use in my PT. The amount is bit less than what was recommended, but I'm hoping the $25 or so spent will ease my mind a little. Right now, it's probably going to be Rotella T 5w40 + H-Zol. I feel this is a much better than OEM solution, that won't break the bank. Rotella T can be found at Walmart and is comparably cheap. It may not be quite as good as Amsoil and Mobil 1 from a pure synthetic standpoint, but I'll be able to change the oil nearly twice as often for the same cost. Changing it more often should help combat dirt, etc in the system. A filter cart might also help extend draining intervals a bit further.
woodlandfarms
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So. not to complicate this conversation any further. I use the prescribed 10.30 ENGINE motor oil.
Should I add hydraulic additives or engine additives (I assume Hydraulic but what do I know).
Carl
Should I add hydraulic additives or engine additives (I assume Hydraulic but what do I know).
Carl
Carl,woodlandfarms said:
Great question... the difficulty is getting a definitive answer.
A product like the one I mentioned above probably won't hurt the system if applied correctly. Whether you will get any real benefit from it is hard to verify... Worst case: you spent a few bucks, but feel proactive about extending the life of your hydraulic system so I guess it was worth it. Best case: it works great and your PT never, ever breaks down.
Wayne County Hose
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I've been paying attention to this post from the start and even replied once or twice. My humble opinion, and it is just my opinion, is that you guys are making this way more complicated than it needs to be. I have tons of experience with hydraulic systems running well in excess of 20,000 hours with hardly ever a breakdown. Yes, breakdowns are very, extremely rare. This is with standard off the shelf dino hydraulic oil changed at the regular intervals with filter. The synthetic and additive crowd would look at you with wide eyes and tell you "that's impossible." But, the fact is, if you are going to break something, it will break with dino oil, or synthetic, or with additives. Most things that break, be it your hydraulic system, engine, tranny, whatever, are usually due to a poor design, manufacturing/parts defect, or something that follows a pattern with all the equipment of that model. Go to a Ford dealer with a 5.4 liter engine in a pick-up and tell them it has a miss, the mechanic grabs a coil pack and puts it on the cylinder with the miss. Most other mechanical products follow this same pattern. The pattern may not be quite so obvious, but I guarantee you it is there. Fancy oils and additives may help a part last longer, or maybe not. Fact is, parts that break can't read the container to know what oil you put in.
I have found in my 22+ years as a hydraulic systems mechanic, is that you have to get the contaminants out of the system. Part of the oil's job is to carry contaminants away from the components. Unless you use an "absolute" filtering system, which is extremely impractical in these applications, particles as big as or bigger than 25 microns are floating right past your 10 micron oil filter and thru your system. Change the oil, get them out, stop the wear, simple as that.
Please, no reason to start an argument. I am simply stating my opinion. Take it for what you paid, nothing.
I have found in my 22+ years as a hydraulic systems mechanic, is that you have to get the contaminants out of the system. Part of the oil's job is to carry contaminants away from the components. Unless you use an "absolute" filtering system, which is extremely impractical in these applications, particles as big as or bigger than 25 microns are floating right past your 10 micron oil filter and thru your system. Change the oil, get them out, stop the wear, simple as that.
Please, no reason to start an argument. I am simply stating my opinion. Take it for what you paid, nothing.
woodlandfarms
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Always appreciate your dose of reasoning WCH...
WCH,
I can't argue with you on the "overcomplicating" thing since that is just what I do... and I pretty much do it for everything I get involved in. I recently bought my wife an inexpensive violin so she could take lessons. I spent countless hours researching everything and anything I could find on violins just to buy the same one I picked out originally. I feel I now know more about violins than a typical man should. I can't play a single note, but I could probably build a halfway decent one. You happen to have a great deal of experience in hydraulics, but many of us do not. There are many things in this world that I understand intimately, but unfortunately hydraulic systems isn't one of them.
I really do appreciate your input. Your opinions balance the ultra "gung ho" views on hydraulic fluids and have definitely helped me. I think I've come much closer to some of your feelings on these topics than where I originally started off from. That being said, we don't want to over simplify things either. By that I mean, there are more issues than just "dirt" getting into the system and things breaking. That is certainly a big concern, and I've tried to keep that in perspective during this discussion. Performance is also a huge issue. PT owners have changed the type of oil used which resulted in more power under hot conditions. Other's have changed their oil and seen better cold weather starting and running. Our tractors are used in a wide range of conditions and with varying frequency. When the machines are stored for long periods, water can also contaminate the system. If we believe the claims of the additive products, they can help with cold/hot weather performance and with corrosion.
The additive discussion was a bit of a side topic. The original topic was what was the best hydraulic oil to use in a PT422 that sees both hot and cold operating temperatures. Based on the input I received from this thread, I believe a sythetic 5w-40 motor oil (Rotella T) is the best overall value. I'm hoping it provides somewhat better performance over my temp range, remains closer to its initial viscosity after usage, and is relatively inexpensive when compared to the top tier 5w-50 variants (i.e. Mobil 1, Redline and Amsoil), which lets me change it out more often before it gets too dirty.
So for me personally, this was all well worth it. A realistic goal is to "believe" you are doing the right thing... even if it isn't always true. Peace of mind (real or perceived) is often difficult to achieve, especially for an over-thinker like me.
Thanks again for your help.
I can't argue with you on the "overcomplicating" thing since that is just what I do...
and I pretty much do it for everything I get involved in. I recently bought my wife an inexpensive violin so she could take lessons. I spent countless hours researching everything and anything I could find on violins just to buy the same one I picked out originally. I feel I now know more about violins than a typical man should. I can't play a single note, but I could probably build a halfway decent one. You happen to have a great deal of experience in hydraulics, but many of us do not. There are many things in this world that I understand intimately, but unfortunately hydraulic systems isn't one of them.I really do appreciate your input. Your opinions balance the ultra "gung ho" views on hydraulic fluids and have definitely helped me. I think I've come much closer to some of your feelings on these topics than where I originally started off from. That being said, we don't want to over simplify things either. By that I mean, there are more issues than just "dirt" getting into the system and things breaking. That is certainly a big concern, and I've tried to keep that in perspective during this discussion. Performance is also a huge issue. PT owners have changed the type of oil used which resulted in more power under hot conditions. Other's have changed their oil and seen better cold weather starting and running. Our tractors are used in a wide range of conditions and with varying frequency. When the machines are stored for long periods, water can also contaminate the system. If we believe the claims of the additive products, they can help with cold/hot weather performance and with corrosion.
The additive discussion was a bit of a side topic. The original topic was what was the best hydraulic oil to use in a PT422 that sees both hot and cold operating temperatures. Based on the input I received from this thread, I believe a sythetic 5w-40 motor oil (Rotella T) is the best overall value. I'm hoping it provides somewhat better performance over my temp range, remains closer to its initial viscosity after usage, and is relatively inexpensive when compared to the top tier 5w-50 variants (i.e. Mobil 1, Redline and Amsoil), which lets me change it out more often before it gets too dirty.
So for me personally, this was all well worth it. A realistic goal is to "believe" you are doing the right thing... even if it isn't always true. Peace of mind (real or perceived) is often difficult to achieve, especially for an over-thinker like me.
Thanks again for your help.
Last edited:
Wayne County Hose
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Kevin,
Trust me, there are very valid arguments for using synthetics and additives. Some of which are indisputable. And, I also learned some things thru this discussion.
Now, just from my experience. If I bought a PT, (I may have one by now if I could convince mama) I would install an oil temp gauge. If the temps got higher than I would like, I would install a secondary cooler on a thermostat. Your standard 2 wire hose is rated for 212 degrees, so I would definately want to keep running temps below about 205 degrees. Even there I would be nervous. Your standard buna-n o-rings are rated for 240 and seals range from 220 to 250 degrees and they are at the source of the heat. I don't know what PT uses for seals and o-rings, but I'm sure they do take all this into consideration. I would just do all that for my own piece of mind, and this is why you look so deeply into the oils. See, I just caught myself doing the same as you do. I tend to over engineer things, and I honestly just realized this while proofreading.
So, you just keep doing as you do, as long as you are happy with it and it works, it's the right thing to do. In this whole discussion, there is no right and wrong, just a different way to get to the same place. Thanks for everyone's insight, Andy.
Trust me, there are very valid arguments for using synthetics and additives. Some of which are indisputable. And, I also learned some things thru this discussion.
Now, just from my experience. If I bought a PT, (I may have one by now if I could convince mama) I would install an oil temp gauge. If the temps got higher than I would like, I would install a secondary cooler on a thermostat. Your standard 2 wire hose is rated for 212 degrees, so I would definately want to keep running temps below about 205 degrees. Even there I would be nervous. Your standard buna-n o-rings are rated for 240 and seals range from 220 to 250 degrees and they are at the source of the heat. I don't know what PT uses for seals and o-rings, but I'm sure they do take all this into consideration. I would just do all that for my own piece of mind, and this is why you look so deeply into the oils. See, I just caught myself doing the same as you do. I tend to over engineer things, and I honestly just realized this while proofreading.
So, you just keep doing as you do, as long as you are happy with it and it works, it's the right thing to do. In this whole discussion, there is no right and wrong, just a different way to get to the same place. Thanks for everyone's insight, Andy.