Beware of possible issues when installing some LED lights on your tractor

[PILOON]

The T8's that I purchased from Cosco have shown no EMI or RFI issues, so that might be a good source (providing all the stores use the same supplier).

 

[Threepoint]

He, he, he...

I have 5 daughters and a wife, three daughters of which are teenagers, not to mention high property taxes and cancer...

Of all the problems in my life, one I really wish I could have is a little static from the lights on my tractor.

Well, there is that, BrokenTrack! :laughing: As a general approach to happiness, there's a lot in the principle "Don't sweat the small stuff". But, then again, when we're already close to perfection, it's hard not to go for 100%.

I've gotten along fine with my LED work light-induced RFI in the cab tractor for 5 years. It's only intolerable at certain times, frequencies and signal strengths. So, if I'm working at night, and something comes on that I really want to hear clearly, I'll just shut down the offending pair for a few minutes to listen.

Still gonna try those ferrite beads one of these days! The hassle is that I'll need to raise the cab roof to get access to the supply leads.

 

[Hilbilly]

You used the word "crap shoot". I think that just about sums it up. You have no way of knowing.

The T8's that I purchased from Cosco have shown no EMI or RFI issues, so that might be a good source (providing all the stores use the same supplier).

Thank you both.

Since I don't get radio reception where I live, the radio interference isn't an issue for me. However I have a 2019 tractor with all the modern sensors and computer crap t monitor the pollution control stuff and I would be concerned that interference with those items could cause some very expensive repairs, that would not be covered by warranty. Guess I better stick with the factory lights.

 

[Industrial Toys]

I don't think you need to worry about that at all.

I should scan an old Fairchild Semiconductor Article explaining the terribly hostile automotive electrical environment, for consideration when designing automotive circuits.

 

[k0ua]

Thank you both.

Since I don't get radio reception where I live, the radio interference isn't an issue for me. However I have a 2019 tractor with all the modern sensors and computer crap t monitor the pollution control stuff and I would be concerned that interference with those items could cause some very expensive repairs, that would not be covered by warranty. Guess I better stick with the factory lights.

They would probably not interfere with sensors and computers already onboard the tractor. however those computers themselves emit RF.

I installed an HF 2 way radio in my 2010 Silverado, and had to contend not only with the spark plug noise, but the noise (discrete carriers, not broadband noise) that comes out of the various computers onboard the truck. One is really nasty on 14.198 Mhz. Ferrites and grounding an bonding of chassis components of the truck (Tailpipe, hood, doors etc) together have reduced the interference from the computer by at least 20 to 25 dB (decibels) . Which in English means a reduction in power of at least a 100 fold factor. I am not done with attempting to suppress these emissions from the computers. It has been an interesting journey getting rid of these unwanted signals from the vehicle itself.

Ironically I have had zero problems with my 100 watt HF (3mhz to 30 mhz) transmitter interfering in any way with the functions of the truck itself. Or at least I haven't found any. This is not always the case when installing transmitters of this power level into an automobile.

The good news is there quite a bunch of us Amateur Radio Operators on this thread, including the OP who have at least some experience dealing with RF (Radio Frequency) and RFI (Radio Frequency Interference) issues. It appears as if the OP (Original Poster W8BYA) is designing his own customer pi network to deal with this unwanted RF radiation from these lights. In escessense he is doing the job of the Electrical Engineer who designed the lights to begin with and didn't take radiated emissions into account. A pi network is a combination of components, usually capacitors and inductors (coils) that when put together resemble the Greek letter pi.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Won't help with on-line sales. But you could take a gell cell and spectrum anylizer with you when you shop for lights.

 

[Trillium Farm]

That is what makes them so efficient. The issue is not that however.....there are thousands of electrical devices that generate RF signals and are designed to co-exist & operate along with other electronics because they are properly designed. I.e., all it takes is a few more dollars to add in some filtering & shielding to ensure those RF signals do not radiate outside of the device case or get conducted out via power & control lines etc. Bottom line is they saved a few bucks but we are the ones who pay dearly for it.

This is why I don't buy anything (if I can help it) made in China & India; Japan & S. Korea are more than fine. Those former countries don't do enough R & D to be trusted.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Mostly these products are made to order by OUR retailers. Don't blame the Chinese.

 

[aczlan]

Mostly these products are made to order by OUR retailers. Don't blame the Chinese.

Exactly, both the iPhone and the HF self-folding jackstands are made in China. It all in what price point the buyer wants and how much QC they are willing to pay for.

Aaron Z

 

[W8BYA]

GM Folks. My apologies for not keeping up with all the wonderful posts & comments from so many. I had a minor mishap getting some small wood chips in my eye and had to go to ER and my vision is not yet right so reading & writing has been a little problematic.

Anyway, rather then reply to so many posts individually I thought I would make some notes here in one post that will hopefully help provide some answers & further guidance. Any by all means if you have any questions please post them and I will get to them.

First things first....EMI/RFI issues are a system level problem which means that one has to consider more than just the LED lights that are causing the issue. It gets complicated real fast because you have to consider what devices are being affected & if they have any filtering, how everything is wired and where power & control lines come from or get routed, or even if there is any shielding involved, and dozens of other variables. Yes you normally have a trouble maker but you also have to have something that is sensitive to or susceptible to that trouble maker. I'll bet $100 I can find a radio to put in my cab that would work just fine !

I realize most here are not in engineering so I am purposely going to try to explain things that all of us can understand. My goal here was to bring awareness to an issue and present at least one or two possible solutions. I am getting close so please bear with me as I tackle this along with my other normal chores etc.

I also wanted to emphasise a couple points: First of all a given RFI trouble maker device may cause horrible issues on one tractor and not on another. For example, in my case if the Jensen radio I use had its own quality filtering the issue may not even exist even though my LED lights are nasty as sin. So you can see the usefulness (or lack of) of someone saying "hey, I installed brand XYZ lights and I ain't got any issues at all"....people might think that brand therefore does not have any issues and is safe to buy and use. They may not with his tractor or his radio but his tractor or radio or tractor may already have some filtering greatly reducing the level of RFI that you do not know about. So be very careful there about making/listening to generalizations & esp about any assumptions.

The next point is just about every bit of electronics is manufactured in Asia. A lot of it is designed over there as well. That does not automatically mean it is garbage and is going to cause issues. If you look at where your Dell, or HP or Apple PC or your Samsung or Toshiba TV are made they are all made in China. The Chinese are very capable of making excellent quality products BUT it is up to the OEM to generate specifications and tolerances to which that equipment must adhere to. In the end these items will cost more but they will be made the way they were intended to be made, dictated by the OEM.

I suspect a lot of the stuff made over there that does not meet spec but still work get a no brand name and sold for way less on places like e-bay or sold to huge liquidators etc.

The issue with the lights that I tried was that they were basically a no name generic brand probably designed and certainly made in China with a major goal being to do so for the lowest cost possible. Sacrifice quality and sound engineering for a lower cost. In this case I got what I paid for. Let's face it, I got a pair DELIVERED for $13 ! Unless you see on the package or in their listing a statement saying something like "These lights have incorporated filtering to reduce possible RFI effects" you are really just throwing dice. Even expensive, name brand lights can have these issues.

There is no one place where one can go to see if a product has been designed & built properly. And to really muddy the water MANY Asian manufactures fake or lie about FCC & UL qualifications and testing. Our government is so screwed up and broke that we cannot possibly enforce the rules we set forth to ensure that all products made outside the USA have been properly tested. We go on the honor system and take their word for it for most residential items. This is a REAL shame.

At this point RFI and EMI issues are becoming hotter & hotter buzz words and gaining visibility very quickly as more and more people are experiencing compatibility issues (garage doors not working, radio's not receiving well, equipment working erratically, etc, etc). Can you imagine if the police show up in an emergency right next to your tractor and the RFI is so severe that he/she is not able to communicate with other police/agencies etc ! It happens a lot. Many years ago I was offered a position with the state police to head their communications dept and even 25 years ago this was a growing issue. I can only imagine what it is like today. And, from my current experience in the defense industry I know it happens with military com equipment a lot.

The more people advertise their issues and demand RFI concerns be taken into account to the OEM's the sooner we will all be happier. If nobody complains or let's them know they have serious issues the OEM's will continue to make products for the absolute lowest price possible and skimp on engineering and filtering etc. One HUGE issue starting to explode exponentially is the RFI created by home owners with solar panels. The switch mode power supplies and regulators they use generate tremendous amounts of noise by as much as a mile away.

Ok so before everyone falls asleep let me say that I have designed and built and tested a prototype powerline filter and it has convinced me that a solution (in my case) is easily possible and can be quickly installed at minimal cost. I do have one more commercial filter that I will be testing to see how well it works. The reason I wanted to test it is because a lot of you need a solution and need one soon and are not in a position to build up something the way I did in my home lab.

I hope to have a maker and part number available before the end of the week and will keep you posted. In the meantime if you do have some ferrite cores you will not hurt anything by trying them. Try to put at least 5-6 winding of the POS & NEG wires through the cores and place the cores as close to the lights as humanly possible. If you do not know what type of core you have then all you can do is hope....if you do have a choice a type 31 core followed by a type 43 is not a bad place to at least start.

It is imperative that the POS & NEG wires go through the ferrite beads ! I have seen folks put just the POS lead thru a core.....that can render the core completely useless esp if the DC current flowing thru the wire saturates the core. By running the POS & NEG lines together you avoid any DC saturation issues and make an inexpensive common-mode choke. More to follow.

Another point I want to make is that contrary to what many may think these issues are NOT limited to just things like AM/FM radios in cab tractors. They ABSOLUTELY can affect things like sensors accuracy & tractor operation. And as stated above, just because you do not notice something on your machine does not mean your neighbor with the same lights on a different tractor will also have good luck.