Block Heater??

[David_Kb7uns]

I understand this concept (thickening oil in cold temps) and have seen it first hand. It would make sense to use an oil heater for this right?

So warm oil going into a cold block and oil pump how well does that work? Would say get block heater first and if the pan is that cold add a pan heater. A block heater puts the heat in the middle of the engine

David

 

[TheMan419]

Use your ears. If you can't tell the difference in cranking over a motor with and without a block heater then don't use one. Why do you need data to figure this out? If the machine starts easier why not use it?

Ummm.... because science and data is like you know useful in making decisions. If the study is done right. Just wow.

 

[sixdogs]

When I lived in the far north I could plug my plow truck in overnight and when I went to to start in the morning, everything was better. The auto transmission acted better, the heater worked faster and my ride-along dog felt better. What's not to love. Same with the tractor. No cab but plugged in overnight it partially warmed the trans fluid and the tractor started like summer.

It was different when it was 25 below but down to maybe 5 below F it was just a pleasure to have a heater that warmed the coolant.

 

[ovrszd]

When I lived in the far north I could plug my plow truck in overnight and when I went to to start in the morning, everything was better. The auto transmission acted better, the heater worked faster and my ride-along dog felt better. What's not to love. Same with the tractor. No cab but plugged in overnight it partially warmed the trans fluid and the tractor started like summer.

It was different when it was 25 below but down to maybe 5 below F it was just a pleasure to have a heater that warmed the coolant.

I've not experienced -25 with the ole Ford, and hope I don't. Last Winter I cranked it once when it was 5 above. Like you say, it started like Summer.

 

[Looking4new]

You haven't lived until you experience -60F. lol

 

[buickanddeere]

I have newer vehicles- both tractor and trucks. I've read a lot of posts recently about Engine Block heaters (''tis the season!!) I've visited the websites for a few heaters and they make the claim of reduced emissions (less time it runs rich) and that your heater will blow warm air sooner. But none of the sites list easier starting as a benefit.

I realize in extreme cold like Alaska and parts of Canada it's a different story with fuel line heaters, battery heaters etc. That's not what I'm asking about.

From what I understand the glow plug or grid heater is heating the combustion chamber. The newer multi-viscosity and especially synthetic oils seem to flow better when cold. And the metallurgy is better as well.

So what is the reason folks in the lower 48 are adding block heaters to modern tractors? I tried to buy one from the dealer and he said I didn't need it. I could see an oil heater if things were below zero and you wanted better oil flow immediately, but not the engine block heater. Has someone had a modern tractor fail to start when cold? Then suddenly start with a block heater added? Or maybe someone has a link with good data on the subject?

Been around engines in mild climates for some time but north Idaho is new to me.

Just because the engine may start without preheating doesn't mean that it should be . Or that there are no gains by preheating.

 

[buickanddeere]

Thanks for the info. So far so good starting here but it's only been in the teens. I've had the Duramax at 2ｰf without issue as well.

EURIKA!!!! On the Phillips Temro site with regards to block heater temps. The GM heater doesn't kick on until the ambient air temp is 0ｰf or -18c. That's the type of info I have been looking for. According to GM somewhere around 0ｰf is when I should be thinking about the block heater.

Here is the link-
FAQs

Like I said in my post I understand the oil heater. That is easy enough to visualize and see- pour your motor oil of choice and see what temp it is pouring or flowing at an undesired rate. Below that- add heat!

Thank you again for the info!

I cut the thermostat off the end of the factory power cord and installed a standard 15 amp , 120V U-ground male plug in it's place.

 

[holeycow]

That's only -51C. Really cold. But it gets colder.

Cold is when the fluid in the thermometer goes way down, not even filling the bulb at the bottom of the vial (way below the scale) and hides there for a week. And you have to go out in it every day.

Be very gentle with your block heater cord because it will break off in your hand...it is a pita to put a new plug on at 50 below.

 

[buickanddeere]

Still a good idea to use a block heater on the super duper common rail diesel.

 

[buickanddeere]

Wow - 0.18/kwh? I was complaining when we moved and my rates went from .08 to .13/kwh.

We can thank a wide eyed fanatical green weenie Gerald Butts who has convinced Dalton, Wynne and Trudeau that green is the answer at any price. Plus the techically clueless voters who believe the politically correct 30 second sound bite on the media.

 

[holeycow]

A fitting name. Butts

 

[RNeumann]

Another interesting tip from DavesTractor regarding cold starts and HST. If the tractor has a clutch and it is depressed, nothing in the drivetrain will move making cranking easier when cold.

Also JD's website recommends their cold weather kit which includes block heater, transmission fluid heater and battery heater when operating the machine below 0°f or -18°c

 

[RNeumann]

Use your ears. If you can't tell the difference in cranking over a motor with and without a block heater then don't use one. Why do you need data to figure this out? If the machine starts easier why not use it?

Hmmm you sure it's not the battery? At 0°f the battery output is about 50% of rated capacity.

 

[3930dave]

I understand this concept (thickening oil in cold temps) and have seen it first hand. It would make sense to use an oil heater for this right?

I will use added heat sources, but my first approach to address low temps is to go with synthetic oil. 5W40 is a versatile choice and should be readily available in many/most parts of the USA.

The most efficient way to transport heat around an engine is with the "cooling" system - with a block heater you are just using the cooling system backwards. Even without a circulation pump running, a properly sized block heater will do a good job.

I like quantified data for certain things, but I'd approximate starting a diesel in very low temps this way..... many of us could get 4 hours of sleep and still work all day, but it's a rough way to greet the dawn.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

Hmmm you sure it's not the battery? At 0ｰf the battery output is about 50% of rated capacity.

Up here, what matters is the CCA performance of the battery. Worth testing, if the battery is more than a few years old.

Rgds, D.

 

[RNeumann]

Agreed- I test and record my batteries when new and then yearly after that. I got lucky and found an eBay deal on a Midtronics tester.

 

[RaydaKub]

Use your ears. If you can't tell the difference in cranking over a motor with and without a block heater then don't use one. Why do you need data to figure this out? If the machine starts easier why not use it?

This is quite valid. Mine is in an insulated, but not heated garage. It never failed to start, but it was close a couple times and the clatter was deafening even for my little BX. I plug it in for 1/2 hour and the entire engine compartment is luke warm. Starts quick and runs smoothly right off the bat.

Ummm.... because science and data is like you know useful in making decisions. If the study is done right. Just wow.

Do you really expect to find any data that says you shouldn't have one??? You seem to believe the dealer when he says you don't need one, but won't believe those that have used them and say they help a lot.

You haven't lived until you experience -60F. lol

I didn't quite make that, only -56F. December 21, 1983. It was not a fun day trying to clean the dairy barn. I had a 1500 watt tank heater plumbed into my old Plymouth. It started like it was only 30 below. That old buggy never failed me for cold even though I couldn't use the heater very often in college.

 

[RNeumann]

This is quite valid. Mine is in an insulated, but not heated garage. It never failed to start, but it was close a couple times and the clatter was deafening even for my little BX. I plug it in for 1/2 hour and the entire engine compartment is luke warm. Starts quick and runs smoothly right off the bat.



Do you really expect to find any data that says you shouldn't have one???



I didn't quite make that, only -56F. December 21, 1983. It was not a fun day trying to clean the dairy barn. I had a 1500 watt tank heater plumbed into my old Plymouth. It started like it was only 30 below. That old buggy never failed me for cold even though I couldn't use the heater very often in college.

Most of the data on block heaters indicates it raises the temperature of the engine about 36°f. So I'm not looking for data suggesting I don't use one only when and what for.

The when, as I've learned here (thank you!) is below 0°f on the modern stuff. The what for is still confusing. Is it cranking slow because of the battery or the oil or the actual engine? The battery and oil can be overcome with some heat. But why leave the oil cold and heat coolant? Wouldn't it be more important to heat the "life blood" of the engine first?

Do you think the BX was making noise from lack of oil or something else? What year is the BX?

 

[Jerry/MT]

Most of the data on block heaters indicates it raises the temperature of the engine about 36ｰf. So I'm not looking for data suggesting I don't use one only when and what for.

The when, as I've learned here (thank you!) is below 0ｰf on the modern stuff. The what for is still confusing. Is it cranking slow because of the battery or the oil or the actual engine? The battery and oil can be overcome with some heat. But why leave the oil cold and heat coolant? Wouldn't it be more important to heat the "life blood" of the engine first?

Do you think the BX was making noise from lack of oil or something else? What year is the BX?

You seem to be overthinking this issue.

Where have you seen actual data regarding the temperature rise from a block heater? Can you share that? It is dependent on the engine configuration. As I said in my initial post you have everything working against starting a diesel at low temperature; low charge temperatures, cold cylinder and head walls that deactivate chemical components required for combustion to commence, high lube oil and hydraulic oil viscosity, and low battery output. And that assumes you're using good winter grade fuel and the engine is in reasonable mechanical condition.Those are physical facts. Certainly you can get a battery heater to improve battery output, you can get glue-on heaters for hydraulic and lube oill heating, you can use a Herman Nelson heater to connect to the intake manifold to heat the air, you can use a Thermostart unit to preheat the intake air, or you can simply use a cost effective block heater like most folks in cold climates do.

An engine manufacturer may have the actual data from a fully instrumented test engine in a cold cell but they don't publish this because it's proprietary to them and it takes quite a few bucks to gather.

Most of the folks on this forum have given you their factual experience yet you seem unconvinced and want "data". As an engineer, I'd love to see that too, but unless you have contacts within the engine manufacturer you aint gonna' get it.

 

[RjCorazza]

I like facts and numbers also, but numbers like the temp when block heat is necessary are not important to me. I suspect manufacturers that throw out a number consider a lot of factors, including customer convenience (who wants to plug in their vehicle / tractor all the time? Additional expense?).
For 2 pickups and my previous tractor, I can confirm that 600w block heaters (in my applications) will raise the block temp by 40f over ambient, and that no increase in temp occurred after 3 hours. This is in temps ranging from -10 to 32f.
This winter I will be using a tier 4 emissions machine that I am curious how well it will start in the moderate cold we experience. My gut tells me it will start fine, but will still rattle and sound like it's falling apart.