Blower vs. Plow

[hwp]

Don't you think the gearing and fan size have something to do with it. Sure the PTO spins at 540 RPMs but that doesn't mean the fan has to spin at the same. Now, as far as if they do or not, I can't say. But I just can't see a double auger snowblower with a 34" fan tossing snow aside at only 6'. When I was looking into these snowblowers I did a search here. One of the threads from a couple of years ago talked about how the casing around the fan would affect the throw. One person had commented that the casing had worn some on his and there was a slightly greater distance between the tips of the fan blades and the casing. When this happened his blower would only throw snow 75 feet! He put a liner in the casing to decrease the distance and once again he could throw snow 100'! I think that was a 3ph PTO-driven Provonost blower.

The "throw distance" is primarily determined by the tip velocity of the impeller blades. Every two-stage snow blower I've seen had a direct drive to the impeller, i.e. impeller velocity = PTO velocity. Tip speed = rpm x 3.14 x impeller diameter (in inches)/12. There seems to be some concensus among the experts that a tip speed is about 5000 feet/min is optimal. This will result in a throw of about 100 feet under ideal conditions. This may be great in rural environments but not in urban ones. A second factor that affects the "throw distance" is the gap between the impeller and the drum. If the gap becomes too large there will be significant leakage between the impeller blades and the drum which will have the effect of reducing tip speed. My snowblower was made by a small manufacturing company and I was able to talk to the owner/designer. He advised me to try to keep the gap between the impeller blades and the drum at about 0.020" for optimum performance. A quick way to check this is to put a dime at the bottom of the drum and see if the blades will carry it to the point of discharge. If the gap becomes too large, the blade tips can be refitted to the drum by adding weld to the tips and then grinding them to the appropriate clearance. Sometimes the blade tips get so worn that adding weld is not practical, in which case inserting a sleeve inside the drum may be an easier fix. I did this to my snow blower because the blades had not been maintained by the previous owner and the gap between the blades and the drum was too large to repair with weld. One problem with adding a sleeve is getting it perfectly round - this can take time but it can be done. I have found that I need to regap the impeller blades about every 100 hours of use.

Back to the example given, a pto velocity of 540 rpm and a 34" diameter impeller will result in a tip speed of about 4800 feet/min - close to "ideal". My snowblower has a 20" impeller and I run it at about 1000 rpm giving a tip velocity of about 5200 feet/min. If the blades are properly gapped then in really dry snow I get close to a 100 foot throw which is OK because I have the space to do so. The wetter the snow the shorter the throw, in part because more energy is used in dislodging the snow from the impeller blades. Most walk-behind snowblowers are built for urban use limiting the maximum desired throw so have a lower discharge velocity.

I am biased in favour of snowblowers but there are times that I use my dozer blade for moving snow. If the snow is dry enough and not too heavy I sometimes use a rotary broom and it works very well but wouldn't be appropriate for the specific situation. Having said all the above, I would think a blade would be the best bet since the amount of snow requiring removal is relatively small and probably fairly wet. One advantage of using a blade is that you don't need a cab!

 

[Nuru]

Well, with the MUCH less expensive rear blade, you can move dirt, rocks, etc. if ever the need arises. Snow blower does a much better job on snow but pretty much worthless for anything else. I would say a blower would make sense for someone near Buffalo, where they get dumped on from lake effect snow all the time. For the rest of us, blading snow a few times a year doesn't justify having a specialized tool for it. But if you can afford it, what the heck.

Definitely agree. I have moved 24inches of wet snow in the Northeast and was inside finishing my coffee, before my neighbors with snow blowers had finished. Also you definitly hope the wind is not bloweing when you use a snowblower as that can be an issue. As can having no place to push with a blade. but the Snow blower really does a good job for those who want it manicured.

 

[EdK]

Snowblower is definitely the tools for serious amounts of snow but you don't have that. Furthermore you should really have a cab even if only soft-sided) to keep something between you and the inevitable blower-induced wind-drifting snow.

I have a similar class tractor (Kubota M6800), picked up a used Fisher plow, a quick attach plate and got an a-frame adapter welded on it for around $100 and can finish a 2250' drive covered with 12" of snow in about 30 minutes. Won't do that with a snowblower and it will cost you a lot more too.

 

[WayneB]

Chuck,

I have a kubota tractor and looking at the requirements for their front mounted blower the initial cost would be more than $3,000.00 (includes the mounting bracket, mid range PTO shaft and the blower unit). A rear mounted blower is between $1,500 and $2,500. I don't lose the use of the FEL with the rear blower. Problem with rear mounted blowers is always backing up to blow snow, makes for a sore neck plus the chance of losing control although I would not be going that fast.

We live in the hills of New Hampshire (not in the mountains but higher than sea level!) and normal years we get our share of snow, typically over 150". This year we have not had any snow as of December 26.

My driveway is just under 1,000 feet down hill with a few small curves, lined with trees and stone walls. Little or now place to push snow. So during the year I have to go out and push the banks back. The snowblower would be nice as the banks would still be there, but 30 to 50 feet away.

There is always the rear blade that will move snow out of the drive way. Again I have one of these and find myself usually pushing snow backwards instead of driving through the snow and then plowing it. This has worked fine no matter how much snow falls. I believe that it works good in less than 6 nches of snow and most snowblowers just don't function that well in little amounts of snow.

Bottom line if it was me in your location I would first try the rear blade, you can get a six foot one for around $700 dollars and if it doesn't do the job then you can always sell them for almost as much as you paid for it. Get the skid plates and you can adjust them so it doesn't tear up your yard and you should be good to go. Snowblowers are great in areas where they average over 150 inches a year and the banks are so high there is no place to push the snow, (North Syracuse, New York, Watertown New York) but I don't think your area falls into the area that has major snow falls.

Just my two cents.

Wayne

 

[Glowplug]

It's good to see that everyone is back on the board now that the holiday is over. I was beginning to think I was the only one here for a day or two. The replies are most appreciated. I guess it makes sense for a plow in my situation with the limited snow, usually less than 6", and usually wet. But keep up the comments if anyone has any other thoughts.

 

[Dmace]

Using my 3ph mounted snowblower is fun as h#!!. With the heated cab, I sit in there with a sweatshirt on in below 0 temps and can do my 200' driveway plus big turn-around in less than 1-1/2 hrs. The snow gets thrown a good 30' or so and all my trees along the driveway have a white pile of snow of their sides about 20' off the ground. My blower is 60" wide, with the main auger for capturing snow and a propeller for throwing it out the chute. It cost $1800 brand new.

Snowblowing is only slow if you are going through a lot of very heavy wet snow (12"+) or banks of snow from the plow trucks. I run my CK20HST 21hp tractor at 540 pto rpms and hold the HST pedal almost to the floor in reverse. I think it is about 7 mph. I have a gravel driveway, so it's kind of tough but on pavement it would be easy.

A blade sounds better for your situation, but I love the look of a clean driveway with no banks of snow along the edges.
See attachment for picture.

 

[Glowplug]

Dmace-That's a beautiful picture!! If I lived in an area where there was a significant amount of snow I wouldn't hesitate to get a blower. In fact, I'd probably go out and get one today before even ordering my tractor!! I would, however, have to tell my dealer that I want to now get a tractor with a cab though. I'm sure he wouldn't mind!

It seems to me that the price of a really good dedicated snow plow and a blower are not very significantly different in price.

hwp-That was some excellent info. I believe it was your post from several years ago that I found which explained all about the throw of snowblowers. Sounds like you really know your stuff. It also sounds like blowers may have a bit more maintenance required than plows.

 

[ToadHill]

Wayne, we get plenty of snow in Catt County NY. My drive is 300 ft long and I use a backblade to move the snow. When the piles on the edge of the drive get too high I use an old snowblower I bought at an auction for $150. I attach it to the 3pt hitch and run it along the edges to blow the snow about 50 ft. away. So far I've only had to use the blower about twice each year. The blade is a lot faster than using a blower for the usual snow fall, usual being no more than 18".

 

[kensfarm]

For the $ & versatility.. I'd go w/ a nice rear blade.

 

[SeymourBota]

I have both on my 'considerably smaller' B2410.

I almost always use the plow. The blower is there for heavy snows that I do not get to in time or for moving piles of plowed snow into the woods.

That much time looking over your shoulder isn't a blast- trust me!!!!

Then there are the sheared pins and broken chains that WILL happen!!

As is the case with plows on trucks, the key to plowing snow is more frequent passes, with fewer inches to plow on each pass.

Worst case scenario is that you get up at an odd hour to make a plow run part way through a storm.

 

[Bob_Young]

I lost my enthusiasm for snow blowers the winter I had responsibility for keeping the snow cleared from a country airstrip. The equipment was a NH TV140 Bi-directional with 105HP and HST. The blower was a 9ft. 2-stage Woods running at a PTO speed of 1000RPM.

I tried several times to put that thing to good use, and it was JUST.TOO.SLOW. In 14" powder, I could make about 0.6mph. That just wasn't going to work with a North-South 4000'x75' runway, not to mention a taxiway, turnoffs and ramp. Luckily it had a warm toasty cab, so I didn't freeze to death....the problem was staying awake.

As bad as the speed, was the fact that I was at the mercy of the wind. That winter it blew continuously from the west for nearly two full months. Every morning found the West edge of the runway drifted in. Throwing snow into that wind was hopeless; the cab was plastered in 20 seconds and I was on instruments. Throwing it East meant it had to go across the entire runway and leave very little mess on the pavement. That didn't work well either; though the sight must've been impressive because people would stop to watch and take pictures whenever I tried it. And did it drink fuel...glad the county was paying for it.

Finally, around the end of January, I parked the blower and used a pusher on the NH to clear the ramp and a Chevy dumptruck with a Western blade to clear the runway and taxiways. Worked much better and, unless it was snowing continuously, I usually had the place pretty much cleaned up by noon.

Now, tractor/snowblower experts, this poor performance may have been my fault. I could monitor the PTO RPM on the NH. I also had enough power reserve to bring it back up to rated RPM when it got loaded down....but was reluctant to do so. Usually what I'd do is set it to 1000RPM, hit the snow and keep increasing ground speed until PTO RPM had dropped maybe 20%. Then I'd give it more throttle to bring it back to 1000 and then keep it there. I might push up tractor speed a bit after that, but wouldn't let PTO RPM drop below 900 and wouldn't add more throttle. My goal was to get through the winter without breaking anything.

My question is; should I have kept pouring the coal to it whenever it loaded down and kept pushing the tractor speed up until I had no more power reserve?
Bob

 

[ronjhall]

I have a blower, rear blade and front blade. The front blade is by far the fastest way to move up to 24" of snow. I have 250' of drive to clear. But do several of the neighbors drives and a 2000' 2 lane road. I have cleared all the drives and road in about 1 hour with my B2910 tractor. No way would I want to clear the road with a snowblower. One neighbor has a circle drive. The blower works very well cleaning the drive off. But I seem to be playing with the chute all the time to keep from blowing snow where it is not wanted.
I only use the rear blade as counter weight. My neck and back gets to sore turning around watching the rear blade.

 

[Doc_Bob]

The "throw distance" is primarily determined by the tip velocity of the impeller blades.

WOW!
Bob

 

[rebuilder]

[QUOTE=Bob_YoungIn 14" powder, I could make about 0.6mph.

Wow, that seems incredible. I've run a 66" two stage on an old Ford 861 for over 30 years in Buffalo (including January of '77) and except for extreme circumstances I can run as fast as reverse gear will take me. I think ya needed to get the deer carcass out of the drive chain or something. 14" of powder shouldn't even nudge the TV 140 awake, let alone bog it down.

As for the original question, much as I love my blower, you're better off with a simple rear blade in your neck of the woods. Grandpa and Dad both used the blade and it worked fine, except in heavy snow years we'd run out of room to put the snow.

 

[WayneB]

Wayne, we get plenty of snow in Catt County NY. My drive is 300 ft long and I use a backblade to move the snow. When the piles on the edge of the drive get too high I use an old snowblower I bought at an auction for $150. I attach it to the 3pt hitch and run it along the edges to blow the snow about 50 ft. away. So far I've only had to use the blower about twice each year. The blade is a lot faster than using a blower for the usual snow fall, usual being no more than 18".

Paul, I am not sure where Catt County is? We have a place up near Potsdam NY and spend three seasons there, one not being Winter. although we go up there once or twice during the winter just to check things out. Snow isn't the big problem there just the cold weather.

I often wonder how people move snow back in the snowbelt area? Around here we have the woods and stone walls to deal with and during winters where we get lots of snow I find myself out there moving banks back and thinking this stuff will never melt away. I am looking into a 3pt hitch snowblower, but today it is cool (31 degrees) but the sun is out and the ground isn't frozen yet! go figure. Tough to sell the idea of buying a snowblower when I should be out raking up what I didn't finish last fall.

The few times I have used a snowblower I found I was getting hit with tons of snow and would come in looking like a snowman. The way I see it is I get a Grand L with heated cab and front mounted snowblower, but I not sure how to sell the idea at home.

regards,

Wayne

 

[zzvyb6]

From my perspective here in central Michigan, the plow wins every time. Ground speed is the key factor. I do 800' of driveway and both directions of a 3/4 mile county road just to get out on the main highway. I can do a few neighbor's drives at the same time. The blower is great for snow dispersal way off the road but the reverse gear limit just kills you. You could even try to argue that mounting up the machine is easier, but the plow wins every time in moderate to deep snow, here. You need some weight and 4wd to get the most out of it but you already have that. I'm amused by people who are crawling down their driveways going 3 mph backwards to use their expensive pto blowers but if you have a life other that clearing a 300' driveway get a 4wd truck and a tractor mounted plow. You win very time.

 

[joe48]

ok, I'll throw in my $.02 now. (Goofing off today ,take a break from work)

My snow experience goes back to the 60's on the farm in the Fingerlakes(NY).
The older folks will remember the blizzards then ,especially 66. We were snowed in for 10 days and were dumping milk($), until the town opened the road with a D8 bulldozer for the milk truck. We only had a JD630 and loader(trip bucket) for snow duty until '63, then a welding shop made a blade from an oil tank for the loader , boy was that an improvement! We had 2 big barnyards and drives and 3 neighbors , one with a 1/4 mile drive to care for. Many times Pa would be plowing snow from morning milking till nite milking, or until one us boys got home from school to give him a break.

The engineering response is right on,(my degree in Agr engineering), whether you're blowing snow ,corn silage, wood chips, etc. Its all about blade tip speed and air velocity.

I have a Kioti CK20HST and have been handling the snow in Rochester NY just fine the last few years with(in chronological order of acquisition),the loader, a 7' back blade from TSC(barely used $150) , an old 7' meyers truck plow(used $50), and just dying to get enough snow to use my new 5' SMYTH blower purchased from TSC last spring. The blower was new list at $1895, on clearance in spring for $1200, the CFO figured it would be a lifetime investment.

The plow is mounted in my bucket and swung manually for now, do hydralics when I can. I used 2 pieces of angle bolted at the back of the bucket. The plow frame pins to the angles useing the stock mounts. The farther back the angle can be mounted the better, as this will shorten the length of the whole rig and lessen the side push with plow angled. Also this method eliminates having to use a chain from plow to top of bucket to lift plow, the bucket bottom lifts plow ,but still allows flexing.
Best part is this setup is cheap easy and quick, takes ten minutes to bolt on angles and 5 min to hook up plow, angle iron and bolts , maybe $5.00.

Both blades work great on everything except heavy wet snow over 6", which loads up and pushes tractor sideways. Got to get the tires loaded and make some wheel weights, but its amazing how much the little ck20 can push.
When it gets too much just use the loader(can't wait to use blower)( then I'll have to build a cab!)

MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HEALTHY HAPPY NEW YEAR!

joe48

 

[rebuilder]

I'm amused by people who are crawling down their driveways going 3 mph backwards to use their expensive pto blowers but if you have a life other that clearing a 300' driveway get a 4wd truck and a tractor mounted plow. You win very time.

I can certainly agree with you on a straight driveway, but when moving in around the barns, shops, garage and various other outbuildings in the yard, a plow just can't do what I need done and a truck mount is too long to be nearly maneuverable enough. Fortunately, for me I can blow 90% of the snow off to the east, so I typically come out pretty clean and dry. However,... that stretch between the garage and the old granary is a different story.

Also (lucky me) I can leave the chute in one spot for most of my work so I don't have a need for a hydraulic adjustment, but it would be nice. there was the time Dad wasn't paying attention and blew the driveway through the living room window. Needless to say, Mom wasn't very happy with him that day.

 

[TMcD_in_MI]

Everybody's situation is a little different, it seems. Here's why I bit the bullet and went with a front-mounted blower and a heated cab. My driveway runs north-south and is about 800 ft. long through an open field. There's plenty of room for the usual west wind to pick up snow and blast it across the driveway. We get enough snow (usually) that it doesn't take all that long to build up 2 foot banks if you're using a plow. When we get a windy night, the next morning we can have 2 feet of snow plugged in the driveway from bank to bank, and, as often as not, it is fairly hard-packed snow from the wind. That's pretty tough for a plow to handle - hard to move and where do you put it? Yes, I have done it, but now - ahhhhhhhh - when that white stuff goes a-flyin' out of the driveway, my blower seems like it's worth every penny I had to shell out for it.

It's true, with a plow I could get up in the middle of the night a time or two to keep it open, but a) I hate that, and b) I will more than likely just sleep through it and start grumbling the next morning when I see what Mother Nature has done to me.

If I lived in KY, though, I'd buy a front blade.

Another man heard from,
Tom

 

[Dutch445]

Snow Blower - REAR STEER / ERSKINE™ ATTACHMENTS, INC.

a link to a rear, pull type snowblower that would work great in your
conditions. yes, more expensive than a blade. (and personally i think the
blade is the way to go) but if you want a blower, I would think you
would love this style, and not have to back up. I don't expect that you
would get any amount of snow that would prohibit the tractor from driving
thru, and with smaller snowfalls, your groundspeed should be pretty decent.
they are a quality machine.. and maybe other manufacturers make the same style.