Building Custom "Wagon" Trailer

[nimblemotors]

I'm building a low budget trailer to haul a 34ft long boat hull, roughly 4000lbs.
The trailer will be used maybe only four times to haul the hulls from water to storage
and back again. I think I can limit the speed to only 35mph on surface roads.
I have a old F350 dually chassis I'm using. Because of the length and the existing front wheels
of the truck, I want to leave them there instead of trying to make it a single axle trailer.
I realized that I can keep the front wheels by making them turn as with a wagon, or "hay wagon".

My biggest question is how to do the brakes on the trailer.
It has hydraulic brakes, so a hydraulic surge brake coupler seems a straightforward mechanism.
However, because this is a wagon where the bar attaching the trailer to the tow vehicle can move laterally,
will the surge brakes work as expected? I mean it seems to me that the wagon design will want to push
the tow vehicle to the side, and I would really want to have the trailer initiate the brakes instead
of the tow vehicle. Hope someone familiar with these wagon trailers can help.

Jack

 

[chim]

It sounds as though the surge brake would work as long as everything was in a straight line. Not too sure what would happen if you tried braking on a curve - especially if you hit wet road or some gravel.

I have a question on the steering. Not sure if this would work or not. Would navigating it be too cumbersome if you were to eliminate the "hay wagon" steering? I've towed cars with a bar that allowed vertical but not lateral movement and the front wheels of the towed vehicle turned wherever they needed to in order to track behind the towing vehicle. I recall watching "the ghost" turn the steering wheel while watching in the mirror.

 

[bcp]

Might be something useful here:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/trailers-transportation/90462-tag-axles.html

Bruce

 

[Gate Lavallee]

do not forget no brakes if bakin up or on steep hill and loose traction and start to go bake up. Bin there done that with my tractor on a rental with surge brakes

 

[boggen]

i would redo wheels for trailer. to make trailer either a single or double axle setup. and then put regular electronic trailer brakes on the axle/s

grain wagon setup, i suppose you could do it that way. i know i did some ugly wagon steering diagrams. some place in the thread i want to say before between post 1 and post 140. see
new tractor idea possibly....

but i am trying to figure out how you could easily do it. due to most boat trailers require a V shape like frame setup. you might be better off getting old or new ""running gear"" (running gear = frame and wheels) and then you can put a deck on top of it, to make it a hay wagon, or toss a combine head on it, or place round bales of hay on the running gear. and everything would be there, exception for some needed extra side support frames, to keep boat from tipping over, as you pull it up out of the water.

your going to hit some costs, when it comes to regular turn singles, brake, lights and making them waterproof. same goes for brake wiring. for trailer.

==============
i would completely forget the surge brake setup. were there is a device located in the bar going up to the pull truck. it will be pushing the pull vehicle all over the place. just go with regular electric brakes that a regular trailer might have.

 

[nimblemotors]

I've been looking over the frame, it is 19ft long, the rear wheels are at 16ft. If I add 15ft to the back (from another truck I have), this would essentially center the rear wheels for a std trailer (not a wagon). however, I think it is a real problem having a 15ft and 16ft overhangs, there is going to be too much momentum and any irregular surface the back of the trailer is going to scrap on the road.
So for a trailer this long at 35ft, I think a NEED to have a wagon setup.

I want to use the existing wheels and axles, so I think what I need is a way to electrically activate a master brake cylinder.
I suppose it could be two switches, brake, and hard brake. Brake could be wired to the brake lights, and hard brake a manual switch.
So any ideas on how to activate a master cylinder with a solenoid?

 

[aczlan]

So any ideas on how to activate a master cylinder with a solenoid?

Electric over hydraulic brakes.

Aaron Z

 

[nimblemotors]

Electric over hydraulic brakes.

Aaron Z

they indeed sell them, but they are rather expensive.
Carlisle HydraStar Electric-Hydraulic Actuator for Drum Brakes - 1,000 psi Carlisle Trailer Brakes HBA-10
I need to Build-it-myself.
use a master cylinder and an electric linear activator motor.
one from a motorized seat adjuster. a little slow, if I run it at 24v vs 12v
that might speed it up enough.
https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=5-1787&catname=electric
or maybe this one, looks a little more outdoor friendly?
https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=5-1783&catname=electric

 

[aczlan]

use a master cylinder and an electric linear activator motor.

They are expensive. My problem with an linear actuator is that you want to be able to let off the brakes right away and waiting several seconds for the actuator to back off while the trailer is skidding could be problematic.
How about a snowplow pump hooked up to the brake lines? They put out 1000-1500ish PSI and could do what you need to do.

Aaron Z

 

[nimblemotors]

They are expensive. My problem with an linear actuator is that you want to be able to let off the brakes right away and waiting several seconds for the actuator to back off while the trailer is skidding could be problematic.
How about a snowplow pump hooked up to the brake lines? They put out 1000-1500ish PSI and could do what you need to do.

Aaron Z

do you have an example of that pump? i suspect they will be expensive also.

another idea came to me, I can use the steering box as the linear activator. put a motor on the steering wheel input, and it can exert a lot of force pretty quickly, then with the motor turned off, it would just wind back to neutral.

 

[aczlan]

do you have an example of that pump? i suspect they will be expensive also.

Not sure where you are located, but here are some from my local Craigslist: Fisher Minute Mount Plow Setup, Snow plow
Buy the whole thing for $300 and then sell the plow/mount for $250

another idea came to me, I can use the steering box as the linear activator. put a motor on the steering wheel input, and it can exert a lot of force pretty quickly, then with the motor turned off, it would just wind back to neutral.

Could work.

Aaron Z

 

[plumbstraight]

with that much overhang you are going to have a fishtailing trailer. The other thing is that putting a boat on top of a truck frame is going to be so topheavy it would be scary to pull. Plus the fact that a truck axle for a 1ton is narrower than a trailer amplifys the problem. There is a reason that boat trailers are set up to have the boat as low as possible.

 

[nimblemotors]

with that much overhang you are going to have a fishtailing trailer. The other thing is that putting a boat on top of a truck frame is going to be so topheavy it would be scary to pull. Plus the fact that a truck axle for a 1ton is narrower than a trailer amplifys the problem. There is a reason that boat trailers are set up to have the boat as low as possible.

i agree a 15ft overhang isn't a good idea, therefore the wagon trailer. Have you seen sailboat trailers for full keel sailboats? They are very high off the ground. The reason boat trailers are so low is because they are loaded from the water and want to float onto the trailer. I will have to winch mine up the trailer no matter what. But I do plan to widen the frame so the lower part of the hulls will fit between the rails, making it easier to have the side supports go up from the frame rails.

With a full floater dana 70 axle, I will remove the center section with the differential, and replace it with a straight piece that will be stepped down so the frame will sit much lower than the wheel height. I can't do much about the front wheels to lower the frame.
So the trailer will have an incline, higher in front and lower in back.

 

[MikeInEburg]

I would scrap the idea and find an old boat trailer that you can rehab. I think you'd be far ahead on both cost and safety.

 

[aczlan]

I would scrap the idea and find an old boat trailer that you can rehab. I think you'd be far ahead on both cost and safety.

Agree. By the time you widen the frame, widen the axle, rig up a set of brakes, etc you would be time and probably money ahead to either start from scratch or to get a boat trailer that needs some work.

Aaron Z

 

[nimblemotors]

Agree. By the time you widen the frame, widen the axle, rig up a set of brakes, etc you would be time and probably money ahead to either start from scratch or to get a boat trailer that needs some work.

Aaron Z

I don't think so. I've looked for used trailers for weeks. Everything is at least $500, a double axle is usually much more.
All boat trailers are NOT wagons, there are NONE that are 30ft long. So I'm looking at MAJOR modifications to existing trailers.
My 350 chassis was $150, and includes 6 2500lb load wheels and tires and a 7500lb load axle, and a 10000lb load frame.
No boat trailer is even close to that. A used triple axle boat trailer (if you can find used one) is thousands of dollars.

My only issue is the brakes, and I can use a surge coupler if need be and consider problem solved, just isn't the best solution.