Defective
Platinum Member
have_blue said:
I'd hate to get stranded at work because a front moved in & made it a cloudy day...better carry an extension cord.
Burning Water
- Thread starter TomPenny
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I'd hate to get stranded at work because a front moved in & made it a cloudy day...better carry an extension cord.
patrick_g
Elite Member
I was especially entertained by the earlier claim in this thread about perpetual motion. There is no way (according to the laws of thermodynamics and they are called laws not theories!) to burn a fuel consuming energy to produce energy to run the process. If you believe it can be done just reach down and grab your ankles and pull yourself up into the air.
An alternator will not produce enough electricity to generate enough hydrogen to run the engine to turn the alternator.
All systems have losses, no one in centuries of trying has ever perfected perpetual motion. The laws of thermodynamics prevail.
Any idiot can stick two conductors into less than perfectly clean water and get hydrogen and oxygen gas. Many a grade school kid has done it. If you use DC instead of AC you get a separate supply of oxygen and hydrogen. With soap in the water you can get bubbles of hydrogen that rise up quite a ways before eventually popping. Invert a jar full of water and let the bubbles displace the water. When full you have a bottle of hydrogen or oxygen. If you use AC you will have an explosive mixture that can blow up and scatter glass for quite a ways.
None of this is new, or useful in fueling a vehicle.
Pat
An alternator will not produce enough electricity to generate enough hydrogen to run the engine to turn the alternator.
All systems have losses, no one in centuries of trying has ever perfected perpetual motion. The laws of thermodynamics prevail.
Any idiot can stick two conductors into less than perfectly clean water and get hydrogen and oxygen gas. Many a grade school kid has done it. If you use DC instead of AC you get a separate supply of oxygen and hydrogen. With soap in the water you can get bubbles of hydrogen that rise up quite a ways before eventually popping. Invert a jar full of water and let the bubbles displace the water. When full you have a bottle of hydrogen or oxygen. If you use AC you will have an explosive mixture that can blow up and scatter glass for quite a ways.
None of this is new, or useful in fueling a vehicle.
Pat
Egon
Epic Contributor
Does this mean I can't drive across the country on a few gallons of water???
Defective
Platinum Member
Egon,
If you dump water on the road for the entire route in January...just ahead of your vehicle...you can, but you better have studded tires.
If you dump water on the road for the entire route in January...just ahead of your vehicle...you can, but you better have studded tires.
Egon
Epic Contributor
Why oh why do people take advantage of my "Challenged Mentally" situation??
I'm still waiting for the Pogue carburetor ordered a long time ago!
I'm still waiting for the Pogue carburetor ordered a long time ago!
AND make sure its salt water!!! glumbert - Saltwater into FireDefective said:
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Egon
Epic Contributor
But then I can only drive around radio station transmitters or??
MikeD74T
Veteran Member
patrick_g said:
Pat, You may have misunderstood my reference to perpetual motion. I was saying that a method to produce a long range hydrogen generating vehicle may be possible but will probably remain unreasonable expensive and otherwise impractical. Perpetual motion is not possible. Thermodynamics is law - perpetual motion is theory.
I always read your threads but note that you sometimes don't really read the ones you reply to.
MikeD74TMaybe, but 30 years ago, I wouldn't have believed I'd both cook and warm food using microwaves, the thing I really liked about this is, it was totally by accidentEgon said:But then I can only drive around radio station transmitters or??
gemini5362
Veteran Member
Pat I was reading your thread and maybe I dont understand something I know you will explain it so that I can understand it though.
My understanding of perpetual motion is when you start a process that is self sustaining without adding any type of fuel.
Technically if you use a alternator to produce current and then use the current to produce hydrogen from water that would deplete your supply of water and you would have to replace the water so technically the water would be the fuel and would have to be replaced so that would not be perpetual motion as I understand it. Could you explain it to me please and If my misunderstanding of perpetual motion is incorrect I would not be suprised.
My understanding of perpetual motion is when you start a process that is self sustaining without adding any type of fuel.
Technically if you use a alternator to produce current and then use the current to produce hydrogen from water that would deplete your supply of water and you would have to replace the water so technically the water would be the fuel and would have to be replaced so that would not be perpetual motion as I understand it. Could you explain it to me please and If my misunderstanding of perpetual motion is incorrect I would not be suprised.
Eagleview
Veteran Member
Quantum physics is only just now being understood and investigated . In a hundred years all the things we thought impossible will be possible . Even perpetual motion will be possible , fueled by the inexhaustable ether that surrounds us , still being perpetual motion . Interstellar travel will one day also be possible . As already said who would have thought you could bake a cake with microwaves . One day someone will discover how lightening is created and put it to work . Or someone will channel magnetic energy sent out by the sun and do the same . Photovolactic cells are only the tip of the renewable energy iceberg .
Egon
Epic Contributor
have_blue
Veteran Member
Iron Horse said:
We can't even make a tractor that doesn't need greasing every day, or a mower blade that stays sharp. So I'm not as optimistic as you.
patrick_g
Elite Member
have_blue said:We can't even make a tractor that doesn't need greasing every day, or a mower blade that stays sharp. So I'm not as optimistic as you.
Bob, You have to use pyramids to keep the blades sharp. You park your implement or tractor under the pyramid and the magical pyramidal forces work their beneficial stuff. And, oh by the way... don't confuse optimism with delusion.
Thomas, I will be glad to discuss perpetual motion and or thermodynamics when we are eyeball to eyeball. I may have gotten sloppy and less precise than I should have in something I wrote, Not the first time. If you captured the water from the exhaust and reused it, then???
I haven't time to fully address the following but I could give a Readers Digest "condensed version" of previous comments...
"In a hundred years all the things we thought impossible will be possible . Even perpetual motion will be possible , fueled by the inexhaustable ether that surrounds us , still being perpetual motion ."
I invoke Clark's third law, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Once people are numbed by a sufficient quantity of things beyond their ken, they tend to lose perspective, set adrift in a sea of unexplainables where they often make errors of logic. Chief among these goes something like this: (but not necessarily phrased as it would be in their own stream of consciousness)
All these things above and beyond my comprehension which are amazing to me or that I thought to be impossible have now proven to be possible and are being routinely done THEREFORE EVERYTHING I thought to be impossible can or will be done.
Balderdash!
Please don't simultaneously try to feed my ego while taking a cheap shot by referencing Clark's first law as although It is a good one it just is not applicable in this instance.
Oh, and by the way... to my recollection there was a series of physical experiments carried out to detect ether. Ether is not needed to explain anything (in these times.) Nothing depends on it. The experiments all failed to detect its existence. It is just an old left over concept that has outlived its usefulness. I'm not sure of the beneficial uses to which a non existent, non detectable, non interacting erroneous philosophical concept can be put to whether or not the supply of it is "inexhaustible."
Mike, Perpetual motion is not theory it is fantasy. I meant no slight to you and apologize if I in any way wronged you as that was not my intent. I usually try hard to avoid an ad hominem. I may attack vigorously what is said but hopefully NOT the guy saying it.
The energy required to turn the alternator to produce the hydrogen to fuel the car is greater than the energy available to be released by burning the hydrogen to be produced. It isn't just that you will "consume water." Water consumption is a wash. All the water decomposed electrically (or electrochemically) is recombined chemically in the engine producing (ignoring less than perfect combustion) the same amount of water originally decomposed.
Adding more parts to the scheme (electrolysis and water) just clouds the issue (or maybe just obscures it in steam.) Why not forget the water and just hook up an electric vehicle's motor to run the alternator to generate electricity to both power the vehicle AND spin the alternator?
Entropy! Heat death of the universe. Every time we generate or use energy in a physical manner some small part is lost to lower states through friction or whatever. The ability to extract useful work from energy depends on differences in levels. To extract energy from heat requires temp differences. As little bits of energy are continuously lost to lower levels as a side effect of all energy transformations, eventually all energy will end up in low states with extremely small differences tending toward no difference at all and so no way to extract useful work. This is known as the heat death of the universe.
All attempts at perpetual motion, however cleverly disguised by the addition of spurious elements introduced in the process of "story telling" (electrolysis and water) contribute to entropy and the inexorable demise of the universe.
Short of a Magic Conveyor the car powered by hydrogen produced by its alternator "just won't fly."
Pat
Egon
Epic Contributor
]
What we have to do is switch to lazer cutting system! Don't need sharpening with that. Done properly it may even trim off those rock tops!
Just think of a Laser chain saw. One could stand back a safe distance when cutting!
cityfarma
Silver Member
Iron Horse said:
G'day Iron Horse
PM me . I have a bridge for sale in Sydney! Goes across the harbour. Real cheap!!
Cityfarma
patrick_g
Elite Member
Egon said:]
What we have to do is switch to lazer cutting system! Don't need sharpening with that. Done properly it may even trim off those rock tops!
Just think of a Laser chain saw. One could stand back a safe distance when cutting!
Egon we have the technology now to do all you say but it isn't cheap. That and certain safety issues... how do you adjust the the "depth of cut" on the saw? You don't want to slice your saw horses, the ground, driveway, your feet, passers by, low flying aircraft, migratory waterfowl, etc. Think of the dangers associated with using a mile long light saber as a chain saw substitute.
Maybe a scanning system of multiple beams where many beams combine to produce the cutting power but a single beam is at worst, uncomfortable. This could be focused for different depths of cut. Unfortunately those among us who refuse to use safety equipment would soon be dead, disfigured, dismembered, mutilated or at least blinded.
Pat
wa9w00d
Member
What patrick_g said.
One thing I would point out to anyone who talks of burning water, it's ALREADY burnt. It's one of the main residues of a fire. The other is carbon (ashes), at least if it's a hydrocarbon that's burning. The hydros that oxidize make water (vapor at first.).
That's my theory, an I'm stickin' to it.
One thing I would point out to anyone who talks of burning water, it's ALREADY burnt. It's one of the main residues of a fire. The other is carbon (ashes), at least if it's a hydrocarbon that's burning. The hydros that oxidize make water (vapor at first.).
That's my theory, an I'm stickin' to it.
EastTexFrank
Veteran Member
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Egon said:]
Just think of a Laser chain saw. One could stand back a safe distance when cutting!
I think we already have one. It's called a "light sabre". I saw it in Star Wars so it must be true!!!!!
