Buying Advice Used Kubota or New Kioti

[Coyote machine]

I agree that preventive maintenance goes a long way. But it doesn't fix everything, and it can't fix or prevent a poorly designed part from breaking if that part is doomed to break anyhow. I'm not jumping on board and saying that Kubota doesn't or didn't know how to design something, clearly their engineering team has much more collective knowledge than this old boy... .but the fact that they designed and then redesigned a part, probably isn't just coincidence where an engineer was walking by and said, huh, I think we should reinforce that. do you remember when the loaders on the CK 20 series tractors were breaking? I read a lot about that because I was in the market at the time for a ck20. Kioti redesigned the loader because customers were breaking them, not from abnormal use or abuse. LS didn't arbitrarily redesign the frame of some of their tractors recently on a whim. They did it because customers were starting to have their front fan blades coming into contact with other parts in the engine compartment. LS found that the stress caused by the loader mounts were tweaking and cracking the frame, so they offered a patch for existing tractors and redesigned new ones.

Yes, some people will use their equipment harder than others, some will push the limits of the designs. Those are the users that help manufacturers discover flaws in their design and manufacturing process. on this guy's actual tractor, the loader is only capable of carrying so much weight. shouldn't the driveline components be built in such a way to function and survive the weight that the loader is able to carry?

We're ALL the crash test dummies for every manufacturer today. We are the chosen R& D guys, saving the manufacturers millions of $ every year as they roll out products for us to test. I've always joked that I should be paid to do final testing before stuff goes to the public for sale.
Kubota didn't likely say let's design a weak loader arm assembly so we can redesign it later, wither. The CK loader issue was before my tractor ownership days, but I did read plenty about it.
Conscientious companies make decisions to repair/replace/ redesign things all day long, and do so to keep their customers happy, keep themselves free of litigation, keep their shareholders happy, and to stay alive and in business in a competitive marketplace.
One owner of a used Kubota does not tell the story of Kubotas versus any other brand. Unfortunately bad news seems to travel further and faster, especially to those who may not know the entire Kubota history of quality made tractors. That's what irks me, one bad experience can taint a whole barrel of perspective buyers for all the wrong reasons.

I have to agree on the Kubota 3/4 inch main drive shaft to coupler being under sized... that is smaller than just the hydraulic FEL pump drive on my ford 3000. I hate to say it but that is about the crankshaft to pulley drive size on my 2 riding lawn mowers...
It also appears that the coupler was made of a much softer material than the shaft itself.

Could be; and replacement parts are available when things break, no? Building bigger, like American companies seem to like to do doesn't necessarily equate to better built. Sometimes bigger is necessary, but not always...

This thread brings up an interesting point - and highlights the reason my second tractor is a brand-new one. My first was a used diesel with only about 360 hours on it. It was 29 years old, and had several minor (at least for my use) issues. Lots of sun damage to plastic parts, lights that didn't work, and lack of modern panty-waist nanny-state-mandated safety equipment. I spent nearly as much time building a ROPS, adding a seatbelt, and fixing minor linkage issues as I did working the tractor, but I gained experience. When it began experiencing overheating, it became obvious that I didn't have enough tractor for my terrain. The little tractor didn't owe me a thing, though - it taught me what I could do with it and what to look for in a replacement.

It did not, however, impart enough knowledge to me to be able to evaluate the true condition of a used tractor, nor did it bless me with the time to acquire such an education. When we decided to buy a better tractor, we strongly favored buying new. I simply didn't know enough to judge condition of a used tractor, and a bit of research into the local market indicated that really good used tractors were only available to members of the Secret Society of CUT Enthusiasts, which only accepts new members on Leap Day of years divisible by 7, and only if you rode your unicorn to the meeting. IF someone had a nearly-new compact tractor in excellent compact 4wd diesel with a loader that circumstances were dictating they sell, they wanted MSRP + tax, delivery, and $30 for every hour they'd spent "breaking it in". It quickly became obvious that a new machine with a factory warranty was the only way to minimize risk.

That brings us back to the original question: Buying Advice Used Kubota or New Kioti. I was looking at a used Kubota 29hp, 750+hrs, never had the PTO or 3pt used. Add a new loader, and have about as clean a used machine as possible, short of an "unwind". It wasn't even a rental return - a local orchard had traded in a dozen of them on a couple of new, much bigger Kubotas. But it carried no remaining warranty, and with the loader and the R4 tires I wanted was very close to the cost of a new 34hp Kioti. The Kioti had more weight, more hp, no hours, and a new warranty. I bought new.

Good points about the needed education and research needed to buy used and not end up with abused or abuse from the Unicorn riding gatekeepers of the realm.
New has it's advantages, especially the warranty part. I see it as a bonus that kicks in if and when something goes wrong during the warranty timeframe. It is like insurance; one likes the peace of mind it can bring, hoping to not have to use it unless necessary. Used is a risky business, and the abyss is staring back whenever one looks it square in the eye. Maybe nothing goes wrong and one makes out like a bandit. Others end up with RNG's sad story and look for a way to blame their way out of a bad buying decision. I'm not scapegoating him, I am saying however, that all consumers are responsible for the choices they make, good outcome or bad. Unfortunately, for him the choice was a dud. That's the risk inherent in buying used, especially if it's one's first tractor. I hope his next buy, new or used turns out better, whichever brand chosen.

 

[GreenCamo]

...They have tier 3 tractors but can't sell them due to EPA lawsuit. Dealer thought it would get resolved...

Has anyone else heard anything like this? I know I have not. Thanks in advance!

 

[uponthriedge]

Have been out of town for a couple of weeks. Just now resuming my search for a tractor. Tractors on the list now are used 2013 Kioti DS4510 with standard shuttle shift and 165 hours for $16,500, will have to drive 4 hours to pick this one up. Used 2010 Bobcat CT445HST with 525 hours for $17,000 from out of town dealer about 2 hours away and new 2015 DK4510HS for $25,500 and a new NX4510HST for 27,500 from local dealer that is 45 minutes away. Planning to drive the new ones this afternoon to try and decide how important the HST is. Hope to make a decision on this evening as the used Kioti owner would like to finalize a deal on Memorial day. Leaning towards the used 2013 Kioti if everything works out. Once I get the tractor then it will be get to start trying to decide on bush hog or finish mower and other implements.

 

[Teachu2]

I'd lean toward the 2013 DS4510 - low hours, one owner, Tier3. The Bobcat may be a rental - might have been an easy 525 hours, might have been abused - I'd have to know more to consider it. The two new ones are Tier4 models IIRC, and $9-10K more money. I have some bias, as I particularly did not want HST - but I am in the minority on that point.

 

[TSO]

I'd lean toward the 2013 DS4510 - low hours, one owner, Tier3. The Bobcat may be a rental - might have been an easy 525 hours, might have been abused - I'd have to know more to consider it. The two new ones are Tier4 models IIRC, and $9-10K more money. I have some bias, as I particularly did not want HST - but I am in the minority on that point.

Why would you assume the Bobcat was a rental?

 

[Teachu2]

Why would you assume the Bobcat was a rental?

Why would you assume that I assumed that the Bobcat was a rental? I clearly posted MAY BE, not WAS. Given the number of hours and that it is at a dealer, MAY BE a rental is a valid concern, and bears investigating. That's why "I'd have to know more to consider it". Even if it was a rental, that might not eliminate it from consideration. I considered a rental return of the tractor I bought - until the dealer offered me a brand-new one at the same price. I've seen rental returns that were only used to pull a wagon through orchards at harvest, and others that had been in a general rental fleet and had been thrashed, to some that had been "reconditioned" with new parts and paint and welds in places that didn't happen at the factory. Bright and shiny with 525 hours at a dealer vs scratched and scuffed with 165 hours from the original owner.....bears a closer look. Just food for thought.

 

[GManBart]

500 hours in 5 years seems low for a rental to me...hard to say.

 

[Teachu2]

500 hours in 5 years seems low for a rental to me...hard to say.

True, but it may have been two or even three model years old before a dealer placed it in the rental fleet. Or it may have been owned by a contractor who didn't use it all the time. Or it may have been a problem child that spent half it's life in the repair shop. Lots of possibilities - but I'd sure ask!

 

[TSO]

Ok... Just wondering. I agree that 500 hrs would be too low to be a rental.

 

[Teachu2]

It truly depends on the dealer. A rental yard will put a lot of hours on it. A dealer who doesn't advertise rentals, not so much. I test-drove a Case 30hp model that was a 2012 last month, and it had 89 hours on it. It was a demo, employees used it for the weekend, and rental if you knew who to ask.