Buying Advice Used Kubota or New Kioti

[s219]

View attachment 423647
This is the outer boss that's supposed to hold the non-rotating pivot pin for the main loader arm pivot. Kubota drilled the holes for the keeper bolts so oversized that the pin ends up rotating, and with no grease fitting on the boss, accelerated wear is the result. Since Kubota neglected to bush the pivots, the repair involves line boring the assembly and fabricating bushings and new pins. This failure had nothing to do with abuse, and was a direct result of bad design and engineering choices made by Kubota.

View attachment 423651

This is a picture of the FEL mounts off the same tractor. Side by side are shown the original broken mount and updated replacement. Kubota realized that the original design wasn't strong enough to survive lateral loads and thickened the web as a result. Again, that has nothing to do with abuse and everything to do with bad design and engineering.

View attachment 423652

This is what happens when the outer cover on the 4WD front hub fails due to side loads. It's a cast iron or steel part held in place by a ring of bolts, and it carries a large roller bearing to support the outer end of the stub axle. Kubota must have used the same side load calculations for the failed loader mounts that they used to design the outer cover. Unfortunately the replacement cover design hasn't been upgraded and the resulting flex is still breaking mounting bolts and causing them to loosen. It's only a matter of time before the new cover fails in the same manner as the old one.

What I bought is an over sized garden tractor that would have been fine if all I needed to do was cut the grass, push some snow, and maybe once in a while move some gravel or firewood. Knowing what I know now, I'd have been much better off with a Cat, Deere, or Ford backhoe/loader for the landscaping work I needed to do. The OP of this thread mentioned clearing woods, and even suggesting that a Kubota CUT would be suitable for such a job is irresponsible at best.

Hate to say it, since I sympathize with your plight, but I think your tractor was subjected to serious abuse before you got it. I pass by about 20 farms to get to my place, and 80% of them have Kubotas, many are quite old. When talk of tractors comes up at our annual fish-fry fundraisers for the VFD, I know I would have heard about problems if they were "typical" for Kubotas. We talk about all things tractors, and hear about issues, but nothing like what you've posted here.

 

[RedNeckGeek]

Sorry to burst so many Kubota love bubbles here, but the OP asked for buying advise on one. I simply related my experience, not only with the problems in the tractor itself, but with the dealership and the company reps that stand behind it. I never suggested that my experience was typical, or that every Kubota out there was going to have the same issues. Every machine ever made is imperfect because it was designed and made by imperfect human beings. That's just life. The real story is what happens when those imperfections come to light, and the ugly truth is that the people at Kubota, and the Kubota apologists here, don't do much more than cry "tractor abuse" and come up with every cock'n'bull excuse they can think of to deny any familiarity or (gasp!) responsibility.

I live in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada mountains, and people at the Grange and howdowns talk about tractors, too. Not many have good things to say about Kubotas, and most of what you see on the wood lots and homesteads is green. If you've got a Kubota tractor and have had no problems, good for you! But if you've got an L3240 or LA724, you might want to pay close attention to your propeller shaft seals and couplers, your loader pivot lubrication, and not try carrying anything heavier than your mother-in-law in the bucket, especially if you're side hilling. I know that the next time I go looking for a new tractor, I'll be spending a a lot more time asking questions and reading comments on forums, just like the OP is doing. And I hope there's people like me telling it like it is, even if their experience at first seems like an outlier. Often they are signals of deeper problems, as they certainly were in my case.



Just one last point. This isn't just about a little slop in a bucket or having to split a tractor to replace a six dollar seal. It's about serious injury or death, all because Kubota chose to save a few dollars of material cost. The photo above shows a pair propeller shaft couplers on either side of the propeller shaft itself. For scale, the OD of the shaft is about 3/4" The coupler on the left is brand new, and the splines on the inside engage those on the outside of the propeller shaft. When the tractor is in 4WD, the shaft transmits power from the transmission to the front wheels through the splines on the inside of the coupler. Off the throttle and down hill, it also allows engine compression to exert a braking influence when the tractor is in 4WD. The coupler on the right has about 1000 hours on it, and I found out the hard way that the splines were no longer tall enough to lock onto those on the propeller shaft.



Now look at the photo above. Those two brown streaks are skid marks from the back wheels of my tractor. They started just after the splines in the coupler stripped and the tractor started accelerating down the hill. In this case, down the hill consisted of a lake filled canyon preceded by a boulder field studded with oak trees manzanita bushes, and a fifty foot cliff. If the bucket's full of rock it tends to unweight the back wheels. In situations like this, when the operator stands on the brake nothing much happens but a little dust because Kubota doesn't put brakes on the front axle. But thanks to those rocks in the bucket, enough friction is created when the operator drops the bucket that the tractor will eventually stop. Those that like to mow or plow or scrape or disc on steep hillsides (about 15% here) without the FEL in place might want to reconsider.

Now scan back a bit to my last post, and look again at the picture of the wheel leaning against the tractor. Sticking out from the center is a splined stub shaft that takes power from the front differential. The stub shaft is about 1 1/2" in diameter. Recall that the propeller shaft is about half that diameter, and realize that it drives two of those stub shafts, one for each front wheel. The result is that we have about at least a 4 to 1 ratio in spline cross section between the stub shafts and the propeller shaft/couplings. It's probably much higher than that because the stub shaft splines are deeper and engage over a longer axial length. Is it any wonder that the coupling stripped, especially seeing that Kubota neither recommends nor applies any lubricant to it, despite the fact that the stub shafts run in an oil bath?

So next time you're out logging seat time, give some thought to what dragon eggs may be waiting to hatch beneath your butt. Then understand that some of them were put there by accident, some by abuse, and some were designed in. Granted, my experience so far has only been with one tractor, but I'd say Kubota is pretty good at the latter.

 

[TSO]

Sorry to burst so many Kubota love bubbles here, but the OP asked for buying advise on one. I simply related my experience, not only with the problems in the tractor itself, but with the dealership and the company reps that stand behind it. I never suggested that my experience was typical, or that every Kubota out there was going to have the same issues. Every machine ever made is imperfect because it was designed and made by imperfect human beings. That's just life. The real story is what happens when those imperfections come to light, and the ugly truth is that the people at Kubota, and the Kubota apologists here, don't do much more than cry "tractor abuse" and come up with every cock'n'bull excuse they can think of to deny any familiarity or (gasp!) responsibility.

I live in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada mountains, and people at the Grange and howdowns talk about tractors, too. Not many have good things to say about Kubotas, and most of what you see on the wood lots and homesteads is green. If you've got a Kubota tractor and have had no problems, good for you! But if you've got an L3240 or LA724, you might want to pay close attention to your propeller shaft seals and couplers, your loader pivot lubrication, and not try carrying anything heavier than your mother-in-law in the bucket, especially if you're side hilling. I know that the next time I go looking for a new tractor, I'll be spending a a lot more time asking questions and reading comments on forums, just like the OP is doing. And I hope there's people like me telling it like it is, even if their experience at first seems like an outlier. Often they are signals of deeper problems, as they certainly were in my case.

<img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=423827"/>

Just one last point. This isn't just about a little slop in a bucket or having to split a tractor to replace a six dollar seal. It's about serious injury or death, all because Kubota chose to save a few dollars of material cost. The photo above shows a pair propeller shaft couplers on either side of the propeller shaft itself. For scale, the OD of the shaft is about 3/4" The coupler on the left is brand new, and the splines on the inside engage those on the outside of the propeller shaft. When the tractor is in 4WD, the shaft transmits power from the transmission to the front wheels through the splines on the inside of the coupler. Off the throttle and down hill, it also allows engine compression to exert a braking influence when the tractor is in 4WD. The coupler on the right has about 1000 hours on it, and I found out the hard way that the splines were no longer tall enough to lock onto those on the propeller shaft.

<img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=423826"/>

Now look at the photo above. Those two brown streaks are skid marks from the back wheels of my tractor. They started just after the splines in the coupler stripped and the tractor started accelerating down the hill. In this case, down the hill consisted of a lake filled canyon preceded by a boulder field studded with oak trees manzanita bushes, and a fifty foot cliff. If the bucket's full of rock it tends to unweight the back wheels. In situations like this, when the operator stands on the brake nothing much happens but a little dust because Kubota doesn't put brakes on the front axle. But thanks to those rocks in the bucket, enough friction is created when the operator drops the bucket that the tractor will eventually stop. Those that like to mow or plow or scrape or disc on steep hillsides (about 15% here) without the FEL in place might want to reconsider.

Now scan back a bit to my last post, and look again at the picture of the wheel leaning against the tractor. Sticking out from the center is a splined stub shaft that takes power from the front differential. The stub shaft is about 1 1/2" in diameter. Recall that the propeller shaft is about half that diameter, and realize that it drives two of those stub shafts, one for each front wheel. The result is that we have about at least a 4 to 1 ratio in spline cross section between the stub shafts and the propeller shaft/couplings. It's probably much higher than that because the stub shaft splines are deeper and engage over a longer axial length. Is it any wonder that the coupling stripped, especially seeing that Kubota neither recommends nor applies any lubricant to it, despite the fact that the stub shafts run in an oil bath?

So next time your out logging seat time, give some thought to what dragon eggs may be waiting to hatch beneath your butt. Then understand that some of them were put there by accident, some by abuse, and some were designed in. Granted, my experience so far has only been with one tractor, but I'd say Kubota is pretty good at the latter.

Lol I love the term "Kubota love bubbles" ... I might have to use that some time. Of course, I think the green crowd has a love bubbles problem as well...

 

[GManBart]

Lol I love the term "Kubota love bubbles" ... I might have to use that some time. Of course, I think the green crowd had a love bubbles problem as well...

Aside from angel tears, and $100 bills, I think the only other thing that sticks to Kubota paint might be those love bubbles :laughing:

 

[Coyote machine]

No love bubbles for Kubota's here, and speaking of hoedowns, stating the incredibly obvious about imperfect machines brings nothing of value to this discussion. Whether people in any area of the country have a thing for a particular tractor color is barely relevant to anything either. Green lovers seem blind to the fact that a large part of the CUT market is made elsewhere, by non-American companies, in Japan, China, S. Korea, etc. And that's no slam, just fact. Most of it is good to high quality. Things that break often do so as a result of use. Your spline pics exemplify that as do the pics of everything that broke, in some cases more than once, on your used tractor. I missed where you said what the hours on your Kubota are currently?
You make statements about how you or others might be killed by your machine's 'defects'. Reality is more on point if YOU took responsibility for how you use YOUR tractor, knowing it's tendency for things to break from being worn out. Similar to not going on the highway with bald tires, no brakes, and a rainslicked roadway with no wipers. It's your job to access if going down a steep hill with a bucket full of rocks is the best use of a worn out tractor.:confused2: You can argue till you're blue or green in the face, but I doubt anyone here, with whatever brand of tractor is going to buy into your atypical tale of cocks and bulls about your particular Kubota being a one off freak, that is plagued with human error defects to the extent you chose to paint this horse's tale.
So learn from what you've already admitted to: not knowing what you needed to work your land; and scrap that tractor, and invest in something that has a chance of getting the job done.
Try something like a Kioti of recent vintage, in the 40+ HP range, with low hours or new. Or a green one if you want to follow your local hoedown group's preferences.

Sorry to burst so many Kubota love bubbles here, but the OP asked for buying advise on one. I simply related my experience, not only with the problems in the tractor itself, but with the dealership and the company reps that stand behind it. I never suggested that my experience was typical, or that every Kubota out there was going to have the same issues. Every machine ever made is imperfect because it was designed and made by imperfect human beings. That's just life. The real story is what happens when those imperfections come to light, and the ugly truth is that the people at Kubota, and the Kubota apologists here, don't do much more than cry "tractor abuse" and come up with every cock'n'bull excuse they can think of to deny any familiarity or (gasp!) responsibility.

I live in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada mountains, and people at the Grange and howdowns talk about tractors, too. Not many have good things to say about Kubotas, and most of what you see on the wood lots and homesteads is green. If you've got a Kubota tractor and have had no problems, good for you! But if you've got an L3240 or LA724, you might want to pay close attention to your propeller shaft seals and couplers, your loader pivot lubrication, and not try carrying anything heavier than your mother-in-law in the bucket, especially if you're side hilling. I know that the next time I go looking for a new tractor, I'll be spending a a lot more time asking questions and reading comments on forums, just like the OP is doing. And I hope there's people like me telling it like it is, even if their experience at first seems like an outlier. Often they are signals of deeper problems, as they certainly were in my case.

View attachment 423827

Just one last point. This isn't just about a little slop in a bucket or having to split a tractor to replace a six dollar seal. It's about serious injury or death, all because Kubota chose to save a few dollars of material cost. The photo above shows a pair propeller shaft couplers on either side of the propeller shaft itself. For scale, the OD of the shaft is about 3/4" The coupler on the left is brand new, and the splines on the inside engage those on the outside of the propeller shaft. When the tractor is in 4WD, the shaft transmits power from the transmission to the front wheels through the splines on the inside of the coupler. Off the throttle and down hill, it also allows engine compression to exert a braking influence when the tractor is in 4WD. The coupler on the right has about 1000 hours on it, and I found out the hard way that the splines were no longer tall enough to lock onto those on the propeller shaft.

View attachment 423826

Now look at the photo above. Those two brown streaks are skid marks from the back wheels of my tractor. They started just after the splines in the coupler stripped and the tractor started accelerating down the hill. In this case, down the hill consisted of a lake filled canyon preceded by a boulder field studded with oak trees manzanita bushes, and a fifty foot cliff. If the bucket's full of rock it tends to unweight the back wheels. In situations like this, when the operator stands on the brake nothing much happens but a little dust because Kubota doesn't put brakes on the front axle. But thanks to those rocks in the bucket, enough friction is created when the operator drops the bucket that the tractor will eventually stop. Those that like to mow or plow or scrape or disc on steep hillsides (about 15% here) without the FEL in place might want to reconsider.

Now scan back a bit to my last post, and look again at the picture of the wheel leaning against the tractor. Sticking out from the center is a splined stub shaft that takes power from the front differential. The stub shaft is about 1 1/2" in diameter. Recall that the propeller shaft is about half that diameter, and realize that it drives two of those stub shafts, one for each front wheel. The result is that we have about at least a 4 to 1 ratio in spline cross section between the stub shafts and the propeller shaft/couplings. It's probably much higher than that because the stub shaft splines are deeper and engage over a longer axial length. Is it any wonder that the coupling stripped, especially seeing that Kubota neither recommends nor applies any lubricant to it, despite the fact that the stub shafts run in an oil bath?

So next time your out logging seat time, give some thought to what dragon eggs may be waiting to hatch beneath your butt. Then understand that some of them were put there by accident, some by abuse, and some were designed in. Granted, my experience so far has only been with one tractor, but I'd say Kubota is pretty good at the latter.

 

[TSO]

No love bubbles for Kubota's here, and speaking of hoedowns, stating the incredibly obvious about imperfect machines brings nothing of value to this discussion. Whether people in any area of the country have a thing for a particular tractor color is barely relevant to anything either. Green lovers seem blind to the fact that a large part of the CUT market is made elsewhere, by non-American companies, in Japan, China, S. Korea, etc. And that's no slam, just fact. Most of it is good to high quality. Things that break often do so as a result of use. Your spline pics exemplify that as do the pics of everything that broke, in some cases more than once, on your used tractor. I missed where you said what the hours on your Kubota are currently?
You make statements about how you or others might be killed by your machine's 'defects'. Reality is more on point if YOU took responsibility for how you use YOUR tractor, knowing it's tendency for things to break from being worn out. Similar to not going on the highway with bald tires, no brakes, and a rainslicked roadway with no wipers. It's your job to access if going down a steep hill with a bucket full of rocks is the best use of a worn out tractor.:confused2: You can argue till you're blue or green in the face, but I doubt anyone here, with whatever brand of tractor is going to buy into your atypical tale of cocks and bulls about your particular Kubota being a one off freak, that is plagued with human error defects to the extent you chose to paint this horse's tale.
So learn from what you've already admitted to: not knowing what you needed to work your land; and scrap that tractor, and invest in something that has a chance of getting the job done.
Try something like a Kioti of recent vintage, in the 40+ HP range, with low hours or new. Or a green one if you want to follow your local hoedown group's preferences.

I think that was a completely unfair attack on his account of what happened with his tractor. how is he, or anyone else for that matter, supposed to know at which point in their tractors lifespan that a main component, especially one that could have a catastrophic result like a front axle, will fail due to use? will you stop using your Kioti when it hits 1200 hours because you assume something will break? and if you continue to use it, will you no longer use it on any type of hill with a load in your bucket because it has a certain number of hours? will you stop driving your car at 70 mph on the highway once your tires are halfway through their expected life span? I doubt it. I think for 99 percent of all tractor owners, we will only know that a problem exists when that problem presents itself, usually in the form of a component failure.

We often see major components breaking early on in a tractors life. Not necessarily related to use, abuse, or anything other than a manufacturing glitch. In any industry, with almost any product, there are consistencies and anomalies related to reliability, both in the short term and in the long term. The fact that Kubota did redesign a specific part that failed on his tractor, only adds proof and merit to his claim that the original part was under designed.

 

[Coyote machine]

You're entitled to have your opinion. Because Kubota beefed up the weld of the loader arm/support structure is what any manufacturer might do if they pay attention to areas of their process that might benefit from improvement. That's why they state clauses similar to this: " the manufacturer reserves the right to change, modify, etc. a particular product at any time, without consequence....

First, I would not be shooting down that hill in his tractor, bucket full of rocks or not.. I maintain my vehicles, 4 Toyotas, ranging from 2008-2015, don't run at 70 MPH with half tread, if road conditions warrant otherwise, etc. I owned and ran a foreign auto repair shop for the better part of ten years and saw just about everything imaginable, on every kind of foreign car on the planet. Some were hammered and just unrepairable because of the lack of anything but break down maintenance. Other customers held to strict maintenance regimens and had 3-4 cars we took care of. Those were the customers whose vehicles had virtually no down time, due to preventative maintenance being performed and potential problems being addressed ahead of failure on the road. I kept meticulous records, and most of those vehicles never arrived at my shop on a flatbed from being DOA on the road. It costs money, lots of money sometimes to keep machinery well maintained, but the benefits are commensurate with the costs. You are aware of this from the looks of your rig/trailer and towing vehicle. The saying goes: you can pay me now, or pay me later. The fact is, the pay me later choice almost always costs more in lost time, loss of use of the machine while waiting on parts, etc.

One has to use common sense, and this guy and his tractor 'story' don't scream huge amounts of application of same. What I hear is blame on everyone but the guy who bought the wrong tractor, admits it, yet still complains it's all on Kubota. No it's not. Wrong tractor for the tasks at hand, a tractor that has seen it's best days a long time past. Taking one look at the pictures of all the problems with his tractor tells any reasonable person this is not something they want to own unless they enjoy constantly rebuilding their tractor instead of using it to perform tasks it's capable of. His tractor is more useful as scrap than it will ever be as functional. Sorry if reality bites, but 'dems the facts Jack.

I think that was a completely unfair attack on his account of what happened with his tractor. how is he, or anyone else for that matter, supposed to know at which point in their tractors lifespan that a main component, especially one that could have a catastrophic result like a front axle, will fail due to use? will you stop using your Kioti when it hits 1200 hours because you assume something will break? and if you continue to use it, will you no longer use it on any type of hill with a load in your bucket because it has a certain number of hours? will you stop driving your car at 70 mph on the highway once your tires are halfway through their expected life span? I doubt it. I think for 99 percent of all tractor owners, we will only know that a problem exists when that problem presents itself, usually in the form of a component failure.

We often see major components breaking early on in a tractors life. Not necessarily related to use, abuse, or anything other than a manufacturing glitch. In any industry, with almost any product, there are consistencies and anomalies related to reliability, both in the short term and in the long term. The fact that Kubota did redesign a specific part that failed on his tractor, only adds proof and merit to his claim that the original part was under designed.

 

[TSO]

You're entitled to have your opinion. Because Kubota beefed up the weld of the loader arm/support structure is what any manufacturer might do if they pay attention to areas of their process that might benefit from improvement. That's why they state clauses similar to this: " the manufacturer reserves the right to change, modify, etc. a particular product at any time, without consequence....

First, I would not be shooting down that hill in his tractor, bucket full of rocks or not.. I maintain my vehicles, 4 Toyotas, ranging from 2008-2015, don't run at 70 MPH with half tread, if road conditions warrant otherwise, etc. I owned and ran a foreign auto repair shop for the better part of ten years and saw just about everything imaginable, on every kind of foreign car on the planet. Some were hammered and just unrepairable because of the lack of anything but break down maintenance. Other customers held to strict maintenance regimens and had 3-4 cars we took care of. Those were the customers whose vehicles had virtually no down time, due to preventative maintenance being performed and potential problems being addressed ahead of failure on the road. I kept meticulous records, and most of those vehicles never arrived at my shop on a flatbed from being DOA on the road. It costs money, lots of money sometimes to keep machinery well maintained, but the benefits are commensurate with the costs. You are aware of this from the looks of your rig/trailer and towing vehicle. The saying goes: you can pay me now, or pay me later. The fact is, the pay me later choice almost always costs more in lost time, loss of use of the machine while waiting on parts, etc.

One has to use common sense, and this guy and his tractor 'story' don't scream huge amounts of application of same. What I hear is blame on everyone but the guy who bought the wrong tractor, admits it, yet still complains it's all on Kubota. No it's not. Wrong tractor for the tasks at hand, a tractor that has seen it's best days a long time past. Taking one look at the pictures of all the problems with his tractor tells any reasonable person this is not something they want to own unless they enjoy constantly rebuilding their tractor instead of using it to perform tasks it's capable of. His tractor is more useful as scrap than it will ever be as functional. Sorry if reality bites, but 'dems the facts Jack.

I agree that preventive maintenance goes a long way. But it doesn't fix everything, and it can't fix or prevent a poorly designed part from breaking if that part is doomed to break anyhow. I'm not jumping on board and saying that Kubota doesn't or didn't know how to design something, clearly their engineering team has much more collective knowledge than this old boy... .but the fact that they designed and then redesigned a part, probably isn't just coincidence where an engineer was walking by and said, huh, I think we should reinforce that. do you remember when the loaders on the CK 20 series tractors were breaking? I read a lot about that because I was in the market at the time for a ck20. Kioti redesigned the loader because customers were breaking them, not from abnormal use or abuse. LS didn't arbitrarily redesign the frame of some of their tractors recently on a whim. They did it because customers were starting to have their front fan blades coming into contact with other parts in the engine compartment. LS found that the stress caused by the loader mounts were tweaking and cracking the frame, so they offered a patch for existing tractors and redesigned new ones.

Yes, some people will use their equipment harder than others, some will push the limits of the designs. Those are the users that help manufacturers discover flaws in their design and manufacturing process. on this guy's actual tractor, the loader is only capable of carrying so much weight. shouldn't the driveline components be built in such a way to function and survive the weight that the loader is able to carry?

 

[sd455dan]

I think that was a completely unfair attack on his account of what happened with his tractor. how is he, or anyone else for that matter, supposed to know at which point in their tractors lifespan that a main component, especially one that could have a catastrophic result like a front axle, will fail due to use? will you stop using your Kioti when it hits 1200 hours because you assume something will break? and if you continue to use it, will you no longer use it on any type of hill with a load in your bucket because it has a certain number of hours? will you stop driving your car at 70 mph on the highway once your tires are halfway through their expected life span? I doubt it. I think for 99 percent of all tractor owners, we will only know that a problem exists when that problem presents itself, usually in the form of a component failure.

We often see major components breaking early on in a tractors life. Not necessarily related to use, abuse, or anything other than a manufacturing glitch. In any industry, with almost any product, there are consistencies and anomalies related to reliability, both in the short term and in the long term. The fact that Kubota did redesign a specific part that failed on his tractor, only adds proof and merit to his claim that the original part was under designed.

I have to agree on the Kubota 3/4 inch main drive shaft to coupler being under sized... that is smaller than just the hydraulic FEL pump drive on my ford 3000. I hate to say it but that is about the crankshaft to pulley drive size on my 2 riding lawn mowers...
It also appears that the coupler was made of a much softer material than the shaft itself.

 

[Teachu2]

This thread brings up an interesting point - and highlights the reason my second tractor is a brand-new one. My first was a used diesel with only about 360 hours on it. It was 29 years old, and had several minor (at least for my use) issues. Lots of sun damage to plastic parts, lights that didn't work, and lack of modern panty-waist nanny-state-mandated safety equipment. I spent nearly as much time building a ROPS, adding a seatbelt, and fixing minor linkage issues as I did working the tractor, but I gained experience. When it began experiencing overheating, it became obvious that I didn't have enough tractor for my terrain. The little tractor didn't owe me a thing, though - it taught me what I could do with it and what to look for in a replacement.

It did not, however, impart enough knowledge to me to be able to evaluate the true condition of a used tractor, nor did it bless me with the time to acquire such an education. When we decided to buy a better tractor, we strongly favored buying new. I simply didn't know enough to judge condition of a used tractor, and a bit of research into the local market indicated that really good used tractors were only available to members of the Secret Society of CUT Enthusiasts, which only accepts new members on Leap Day of years divisible by 7, and only if you rode your unicorn to the meeting. IF someone had a nearly-new compact tractor in excellent compact 4wd diesel with a loader that circumstances were dictating they sell, they wanted MSRP + tax, delivery, and $30 for every hour they'd spent "breaking it in". It quickly became obvious that a new machine with a factory warranty was the only way to minimize risk.

That brings us back to the original question: Buying Advice Used Kubota or New Kioti. I was looking at a used Kubota 29hp, 750+hrs, never had the PTO or 3pt used. Add a new loader, and have about as clean a used machine as possible, short of an "unwind". It wasn't even a rental return - a local orchard had traded in a dozen of them on a couple of new, much bigger Kubotas. But it carried no remaining warranty, and with the loader and the R4 tires I wanted was very close to the cost of a new 34hp Kioti. The Kioti had more weight, more hp, no hours, and a new warranty. I bought new.