Cable barriers

/ Cable barriers #1  

Farmwithjunk

Super Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2005
Messages
7,631
Location
Mt Washington, Kentucky
Tractor
Where do I begin.....
It's a stretch I'll admit, but this needs to be in the saftey forum I'd think.

Since many of us haul tractors on the interstates, highway saftey is an important consideration. I had a "demonstration" on this past Friday afternoon of a relatively new saftey feature on the highways in my area. Maybe you're already familiar with them. I'm talking about 3-strand cable barriers in the medians to prevent "cross-over" collisions.

I was on my way to the Massey Ferguson dealer pick up a few parts. It was early in the normal rush hour traffic flow. (around 3PM) Off in the distance, in the on-coming lanes, I could see cars and trucks starting to make what I'd call EVASIVE MANUEVERS. They were dodging a car that was driving too fast and too wreckless. It was a small "fast and furious" car replete with the popular rear wing, low profile 20" wheels, ect. Speed limit on this highway is 65. He was probably doing 100 in heavy traffic. I saw him pass a semi ON THE INSIDE saftey strip, NOT in a driving lane. Then he lost it. 2 wheels in the grass, then it drifted side-ways a bit. The driver over-corrected, went into the rear wheels of the truck, bounced off, and into the median. He got full sideways. Sliding along in the grass sideways, he was still going so fast that he was obviously passing other motorist's who were still travelling at the speed limit. He got lucky (so far) and the car turned back straight. It came back up on the pavement. He started to go towards another semi that was slightly behind the first one he hit. The driver turned back towards the grass. When he hit the grass this time, probably travelling at approx. 60 or 70 mph by now, the car swapped ends. He was backing up at almost the speed limit. The car went across the median, bound for the traffic lanes going in the opposite direction, MY direction. He WOULD have ran out into oncoming traffic, which was bumper to bumper, travelling at (or above) the posted 65 mph. It would have been a horrific wreck. Judging by the angle and timing, it would have involved me. Then, just along side of the lane I was in, he hit the 3-strand cables....backwards at 60 or 70 mph.

Ever see an aircraft carrier landing of a fighter jet?

The cables snagged the car, directing it along the cables for maybe 25 or 30 feet, slowing it's momentum in a heartbeat, preventing it from entering oncoming traffic, and PROBABLY saving numerous lives.

The top cable ended up on top of the car, holding it down. The middle cable slid along the side of the car, preventing it from continuing into oncoming traffic. The lower cable ended up under the car, guiding it straight and slowing it.

By the time everything was over, traffic was stopping in both directions. I pulled off the road into the median (on my side) I was in a state of shock for a few seconds. The driver of the car was out of his car in seconds. He was unhurt, but having what could best be described as a panic attack. He was "flipping out". His car was torn up, but still intact for the most part. No one was injured.

I was suitably impressed. (albiet a nervous wreck for a few minutes)

Every now and then, highway saftey engineers come up with a workable solution to prevent catastrophic auto accidents. They did in this case.

As much as anything, I'd like to make a public aknowledgment in favor of use of these cable restraint barriers. They do work. I'm here today BECAUSE they work. My thanks to Kentucky Dept. of Transportation. You all saved my butt on this day.

And for the record, the driver ended up being in his early 20's, DRUNK, and as the police noted when taking information from witness's, having no valid license. Also worthy of note, these cables were installed just this past winter and early spring. Timing IS everything.
 
/ Cable barriers #2  
Farmwithjunk, we've got hundreds of miles of that kind of median barrier in this part of the country. I'm not sure how long they've been doing it, but quite awhile. Some areas have the concrete barriers while others have the cable. I think what it amounts to, is that the shorter stretches have the concrete while the long stretches have the cables. Either one works well to prevent the cross over accidents. I recently read an article about them that said the cables are gaining favor because they cost less than the concrete to install. However, the cables require more cost for repairs and maintenance. In all probability, there will be some pretty expensive repairs to the cables where you saw that accident while there would have been none if it had been a concrete barrier. The only problem with the article I read was that it didn't tell what ratio the cost difference is, and in fact didn't give any dollar amounts for either the cables or the concrete.

I'd like to make a public aknowledgment in favor of use of these cable restraint barriers

I'd prefer the concrete barrier, but if the cost difference is sufficient, then I might be in favor of the cables.;) In any case, I like to have one or the other.
 
/ Cable barriers #3  
I read an article about the cables on the MODOT web site. It has some very convincing video on the page. The advantage of cables over a concrete median barrier is that they stop the accident cold, where a concrete median just prevents the accident from crossing lanes. A concrete barrier is just going to throw the fool back into the traffic flow.

In MO they are stretching miles and miles of cable barrier now. I realize it is a maintenance item -- but it looks like money well spent.
 
/ Cable barriers #4  
They've somewhat recently completed barriers on I-70 in Missouri. Mostly cable in the rural areas and concrete in other areas. I drive about 45 miles of I-70 each way to work and back and see damaged cable sections most evry day. It seems like it takes them over a week to replace and repair damaged sections. But they do work!
 
/ Cable barriers #5  
A concrete barrier is just going to throw the fool back into the traffic flow.

Jeff, when the concrete barriers first started gaining popularity, there were some impressive videos used to sell that idea. The main point of the videos was that a vehicle hitting the concrete almost always continued to slide along, staying against the concrete rather than bouncing back out into traffic as had usually happened with the old metal barriers. I think everyone realizes that they can bounce back out into traffic, but not as easily as they did with metal.
 
/ Cable barriers #6  
You're right, Bird. I said "bounce back" when the design of the concrete barrier encourages the vehicle to slide rather than bounce.
What I meant was that the concrete barrier does little to stop the vehicle where the cables are working to stop as well as direct.
 
/ Cable barriers #7  
Mornin Bill,
Well this guy was definitely making a statement going 100 mph passing a tractor trailer on the inside safety strip ! :eek:

We have a lot of the safety cable up this way but its usually used on the outside shoulder of our roadways, not in the center. But hopefully the state DOT chief is reading your post also ! ;) :)
 
/ Cable barriers #10  
whodat90 said:
... There are a number of systems available, and the cable systems are typically used because they're the cheapest.

I am not sure that is the case at all. Cable is labor intensive to install and requires significant maintenance after every accident. While I can see that motorcyclists would view it as a waiting garot, I think it is becoming more and more popular because it is very effective, not because it is cheapest.
 
/ Cable barriers #11  
They have those cable barriers on I-81 and they may have worked ok, although I've seen tractor trailers get past them. It takes too long to get them repaired and then nothing is there for the next wreck until they get around to repairing the cable. I like the concrete barrier like on 270 going to DC.
I guess all the crazies were out on the road lately. I saw a motorcycle (not the crotch rocket type) pass cars and a tractor trailer by going down between the two lanes. Bad for him it was rush hour and once we got up to speed he wasn't brave enough to do it again, but an Officer of the Law had seen the first stunt and initiated a traffic stop. The guy tried to cut off on an exit but it was too late, the officer was all ready on him!!!!
 
/ Cable barriers #12  
KubotaSteve said:
I guess all the crazies were out on the road lately. I saw a motorcycle (not the crotch rocket type) pass cars and a tractor trailer by going down between the two lanes.


called "cuttin lanes" and its legal in CA. I was out there helping a good friend move back from a summer internship and had a guy on a crotch rocket blow past us on the parking lot er interstate at about 40. Just a loud buz and a flash past my door, bout scared the **** out of me!

he turned and looked at me with a very distainfull look on his face and said... "ya thats legal out hear" :rolleyes:
 
/ Cable barriers #13  
I've seen where 18 wheelers have shot right through those cable barriers, but I've seen where they have gone over the cement ones too. Not sure you can do anything about that.

I-77 in SC has a super wide median. I think that is the best prevention of cross over accidents. I-85 and I-26 have very narrow medians in places. The cable barriers have made a tremendous difference in these places.

The worst accident I ever saw was on I-26. I did not see it happen but was among the first to stop. A Ford Taurus had crossed the median (driver fell asleep) and was hit in the passenger door by a Ford Explorer which did not even have time to brake. The passenger seat was shoved all the way through the car and out the back door on the driver side. The driver was uninjured but the passenger was strewn all over the place. I've worked in ERs and seen lots trauma but this one was by far the worst.

A cable barrier would have made a big difference.
 
/ Cable barriers
  • Thread Starter
#14  
I'm going to attempt to address a number of replies with this one.

First off, we've had a number of styles of concrete barriers on our roads for a number of years. They stop cross overs, but don't stop the wreck from continuing like what I saw Friday. I've seen a couple semi vs. concrete wall wrecks. I'm not sure anything REASONABLE would stop them in their tracks. I did see the aftermath of a semi vs. cable barrier wreck. It was a mess, but no worse than any other method. The semi DIDN'T go through the cables either.

Kentucky's Transportation Cabinet did something totally out of character. They did something SMART. The contractor who installed these barriers is responsible for all repairs, which must be made with-in 48 hours, as part of their bid. Maintenance and upkeep is contracted for 6 years from date of completion. With-in 6 years, Kentucky is slated to have several hundred miles of cable barriers in place, along with a dedicated repair crew so that our State Highway Dept. can handle repairs in a timely fashion. The wreck Friday has already been repaired. It took out 6 post's and loosened the cables. There are turnbuckles every 100 yards to adjust the cables, and I understand cost per post replaced is around $400 each. A small price to pay to keep a car from slamming into the front of MY truck, if I do say so.

As a motorcyclist of some 40+ years, I'm not falling for the idea that cables are the danger in high speed bike crashes. High speed bike crashes ARE the danger. The oucome of hitting 3 cables at 75mph isn't much different than smacking a concrete wall or the front bumper of a semi at 75 all facts considered.

I'm one of those "don't believe it 'till I see it" types. What I saw Friday was most convincing. What is a fairly common type of accident and generally a multiple fatality accident was reduced to a wasted car and a shook up driver because of a relatively inexpensive saftey device.

Seems like a no brainer to me. More cables, less funerals.
 
/ Cable barriers #15  
The metal guard rails on the outside edges of highways work in a very similar fashion. They have wooden posts for a reason. If the rail is struck from any angle but 90 degrees, the posts snap off or come out of the ground but the rail absorbs the impact and stays intact and on video I've seen it reacts like a big ribbon.

But the cable barriers seem to work better.
 
/ Cable barriers #16  
I don't believe I said anything about 'high speed crashes' nor did I say that stupid people should be protected from themselves. I've been riding motorcycles for 20+ years, and I've had a couple of getoffs. Proper gear has protected me each time. How many motorcyclists do you see each day? Only the ones doing something stupid. You don't see the hundred or more that are ridden by normal, law abiding people at normal speeds. It's human nature. There have been many studies done, and there is much data to support the facts (not opinions, but facts) that cable barriers are cheaper than other systems and that they are deadly to motorcyclists, even in relatively low-speed interactions. If you've got the bandwidth, check out :
http://www.fema.ridersrights.org/crashbarrier2005/crashbarrier2005.PDF
It's almost 8 megs though. If you want more, do a google search on 'motorcycles cable barriers'
Here's one that shows the price difference between cable barriers and other systems:
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/eesc/design/policy/Documents/CableBarriersubmittalforTRB.pdf
I'm not going to get into defending all motorcyclists against misconceptions and individual experiences. I'm just going to say that not even real motorcyclists like squids (t-shirt and flip-flop wearing helmetless morans that do 100mph standup wheelies in traffic, etc.) I'm personally of the opinion that darwin's mighty hand will take care of that problem regardless of the amount of protection built into the road. I'm more concerned with the scenario of 'I'm riding along @55mph, and someone changes into my lane pushing me into the barrier' Happens a lot, including to a friend of mine. He hit a concrete barrier and slid; busted up a bit, but still all in one piece.
whodat

Oh yeah, one more point: the biggest problem with cable systems isn't necessarily the cables, it's the support posts. FWJ, what kind of bike do you ride?
 
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/ Cable barriers
  • Thread Starter
#18  
whodat90 said:
I don't believe I said anything about 'high speed crashes' nor did I say that stupid people should be protected from themselves. I've been riding motorcycles for 20+ years, and I've had a couple of getoffs. Proper gear has protected me each time. How many motorcyclists do you see each day? Only the ones doing something stupid. You don't see the hundred or more that are ridden by normal, law abiding people at normal speeds. It's human nature. There have been many studies done, and there is much data to support the facts (not opinions, but facts) that cable barriers are cheaper than other systems and that they are deadly to motorcyclists, even in relatively low-speed interactions. If you've got the bandwidth, check out :
http://www.fema.ridersrights.org/crashbarrier2005/crashbarrier2005.PDF
It's almost 8 megs though. If you want more, do a google search on 'motorcycles cable barriers'
Here's one that shows the price difference between cable barriers and other systems:
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/eesc/design/policy/Documents/CableBarriersubmittalforTRB.pdf
I'm not going to get into defending all motorcyclists against misconceptions and individual experiences. I'm just going to say that not even real motorcyclists like squids (t-shirt and flip-flop wearing helmetless morans that do 100mph standup wheelies in traffic, etc.) I'm personally of the opinion that darwin's mighty hand will take care of that problem regardless of the amount of protection built into the road. I'm more concerned with the scenario of 'I'm riding along @55mph, and someone changes into my lane pushing me into the barrier' Happens a lot, including to a friend of mine. He hit a concrete barrier and slid; busted up a bit, but still all in one piece.
whodat

Oh yeah, one more point: the biggest problem with cable systems isn't necessarily the cables, it's the support posts. FWJ, what kind of bike do you ride?

Not a lot of low speed get-offs on interstate highways. Motorcycles account for less than 1/2 of 1% of passenger miles on interstates. They aren't a primary concern in the grand scheme of things. You accept that when you throw a leg over your bike and head of on the highway. Doubtfull we'll ever see a bike friendly highway divider. The best we can hope for is no ones Buick hitting us head on in a cross-over wreck.

I've read reports skewed to both pro-bike and anti-bike mindsets regarding highway saftey. But as with all too many things in life, it's all about the dollars. Highway saftey is a matter of juggling the bucks to protect the most people with the dollars available. If there was an infinate budget, I'm quite sure someone would come up with a plan to protect us all from ourselves and each other. The budget has its limits. So we get what serves the vast majority. I've rode bikes since I got my license (in 1965) I've been ran off the road, laid 'em down in gravel, hit a few slick spots and scared the bejesus out of myself. Even hit from behind while sitting at a traffic light. (Slow speed. No injury, but much damage to a new bike) It's part of the "fun". It's our choice.

Current ride is a '96 Harley Springer Softtail with a BUNCH of expensive chrome courtesy of original owner.
 
/ Cable barriers #19  
...Kentucky's Transportation Cabinet did something totally out of character. They did something SMART. The contractor who installed these barriers is responsible for all repairs, which must be made with-in 48 hours, as part of their bid. Maintenance and upkeep is contracted for 6 years from date of completion. With-in 6 years, Kentucky is slated to have several hundred miles of cable barriers in place, along with a dedicated repair crew so that our State Highway Dept. can handle repairs in a timely fashion. The wreck Friday has already been repaired. It took out 6 post's and loosened the cables....

Wow. That is impressive. NC has been putting up the cable barriers and they have stopped some accidents from getting worse. BUT our DOT was taking a long time to fix the barriers. The long delay in fixing the barriers has supposedly been fixed. But someone had to die first. There was a crossover accident where the cable system was installed but it was down due to a previous accident...

Later,
Dan
 
/ Cable barriers #20  
FarmW/Junk, common sense ain't so common these days, but I believe you got some. I like the way you think.
 
 
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