Calling all Gearheads

kiphorn · May 22, 2002

The new house is started and it looks like we're going to blow our budget on some of the allowances that the builder included in his price for the cabinets, fixtures, etc.

The money to pay for these items has to come from somewhere, so for now it looks like it comes out of the tractor fund. /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif

My question, should I get the tractor I want without the hydrostatic transmission or should I go a little smaller and get the hydro.

I own 15 wooded acres. I'm partially clearing 2-3 acres for the house meaning 2-3 acres of grass to cut in a partially wooded area.

My driveway will be 800' long (gravel) with a slight uphill grade. We get approx. 2-6 snowstorms of approximately 6" and the occasional 12" storm each year.

I want to use the front end loader to keep the under brush in check in the woods around the house.

My original thoughts were to buy something in the 25-30 hp range. Can I do what I've noted with a gear tractor, or will the shifting become a major inconvenience? If shifting is out, will I be able to satisfactorily complete the tasks with a 20-25 hp tractor?

What are shuttle shifters, sync reversers etc.? Do they offer a viable alternative to the ease of a hydro transmission?

Thanks for the help.

Kip

MikePA · May 22, 2002

Kip, a third alternative is to get what you need/want but buy used. Of the three alternatives, (1) Smaller hydro, (2) Right size but gear or (3) Right size hydro, I'd go with option 3.

RobS · May 22, 2002

Kip, I'm a gearhead and I can tell you you'll be fine with gears if you need. Think about it, a couple of decades ago everything was gear and everyone got a long just fine. Sure, a hydro may be faster/more efficient in certain situations but with gears you get more seat time /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

BTW, good luck on your new house. I suspect if I had waited to get the tractor until after we started construction I wouldn't have one for a long time. As it turns out we accelerated our construction plan by a couple of years even after buying the tractor /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

EdKing · May 22, 2002

Can I do what I've noted with a gear tractor, or will the shifting become a major inconvenience? 

While hydro is convient, it is not in any way a necessity. With a little practice, you can operate a gear tractor just as efficiently as a hydro tractor.

What are shuttle shifters, sync reversers etc.? 

A shuttle shifter is a second shifter that selects foward or reverse. You pick the main gear (usually 1 to 4) and use the shuttle to pick foward or reverse. I believe a sync reverseer allows you to shift from foward to reverse without clutching.

Have you considered/looked at Kioti or Long tractors ? While they are not one of the "Big Three" they offer a well made tractor at a reasonable price. You can get a lot more bang for your buck.

Tractor_Barn · May 22, 2002

Kip, I grew up using nothing but gear tractors with and without loaders. What you are describing will be no problem with a gear tractor. Hydro is nice but, being an old farm boy, I prefer to keep things simple, like gears.

Shamless plug...check my web site.

Vince

DK35vince · May 22, 2002

I agree with Ed.You do not need hydro. for your uses.
A sycronized transmission with reverser would work just fine.
To save more money to get the size tractor we wanted with the extra features that come standard on them Ed went with a Landtrac and I went with a Kioti Dk and we are both very happy with our choice..

Kodiak · May 22, 2002

Sounds like you have a great peice of property, that will supply you with countless projects over the forth coming years.

I've been into the compact tractor scene going on Twenty three years. Most of it in comercial property maintenance as well as tight residential excavation. That means a whole lot of FEL time, as well as backhoe use. And all of it has been with a standard transmission. I'm quite confident that with a few hours under their belts, most people can become just as profeicent with a gear tranny as with The hydrostatics. In fact I've witnessed more incidents occurring ( such as slapping something accidently with the FEL, or swinging an implement on the 3PH into something) from complaceicency on hydro's, than gear tractors. Those who operate gear tractors seem to develop a certain amount of precision.

In fact I just took delivery of my new N.H. TC29, with Backhoe and FEL on Monday. And yes it has the standard 9X3 tranny. I actually had to go with the TC29 over the TC33 be so I could get the standard tranny with the live PTO. No regrets though. I'm substituting experiance for a couple of horsepower. But with a property the size of yours a few more horsepower can always come in handy.

Good luck on your new purchase, and happy tractoring.

Corm · May 23, 2002

kiphorn - I agree with the others. You'll get along just fine with a gear drive tractor. I've been driving tractors since I was a kid in high school, all gear drive. There isn't anything you can do with a hydro that you can't do with a gear drive, and with a little practice, just as quickly. Hydro is a convenience, not a necessity. I don't want to start a hydro vs gear war here, this is just my opinion.... The money I saved by buying a gear drive vs a hydro enabled me to buy a bigger tractor, a decision I have not regretted. Go for the gear drive! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Corm

TBone · May 23, 2002

Ditto to the gears! Personally I would pick a geared tractor with a syncro shuttle over a hydo if they were the same price.

I know many (most) swear by the hydros and if all I did was fel work I might agree (I don't even own a fel). But for general "tractor work" I can do it better and faster with what I have.

If I had to give up my syncro shuttle though I might rethink my position on hydros. This feature makes as much difference as day and night.

TBone

MChalkley · May 23, 2002

Kip - You said you were calling "gearheads", and that's what you've gotten so far, with one exception, I guess. It depends on what you want to hear, I guess. If you want assurance that it's a good idea to buy a Ford, you'll get a lot more favorable responses if you only poll Ford owners, that's for sure.

If, on the other hand, you wanted a more diverse set of opinions, and one based on a wider range of experiences and backgrounds, you'd do well to ask "Which is better: Hydro or Gear?" Which is, in fact, a question that's been asked a few dozen times here on TBN. I'd suggest you do a few searches into the wealth of info from back posts to get as much info as you can before plunking your hard-earned dollars down on anything.

I've been running tractors/and heavy equipment for over 30 years, and I'll disagree completely with most of the advice you've gotten so far in response to your question. (Of course, you've gotten the ones you asked for an opinion to respond, so maybe you're happy - if so, just ignore me. If, on the other hand, you want additional un-biased information, hear me out.) One thing I can say with quite a bit of certainty is that it is not true that you can get as good at controlling a gear machine as you can with a hydro, unless you get really good at, and don't mind, burning the clutch up. There is no other way.

I'm going to rant a little here. I just love (insert emoticon for extreme sarcasm here) the old lame line that "hydros are for beginners". It's very effective at appealing to the macho tractor man image, but it's a lie. I consider myself to be a pretty fair operator. By which I mean that I've got lots and lots of seat time, average coordination, and I keep my eyes and ears open. That's about all it takes to be a pretty fair operator. I know guys who are better, and I know a couple who have less experience than I do who I'd say are just as good. But, the only people I know who aren't better operators with HST are those who won't use it.

As to the safety issues: Is it possible to operate a gear tractor just as safely as a hydro? Almost. Is it likely that you're going to? Not a chance. It can be done, but not if you're tired, not if your mind ever wanders, not if you ever make mistakes. If you can say none of those things affects you, you need professional help. Is it possible to make safety related mistakes on a hydro tractor? Sure, but there's a lot less opportunity. And just remember the old adage about pilots "There's two kinds: those who've landed a plane without remembering to put the landing gear down, and those who will." Meaning, if there's a mistake that can possibly be made, you'll eventually make it if you live long enough and use the tractor enough. That's why it's important to cut down on the number and severity of the consequences of them.

Now, back to your questions: Can you do all those things with a gear tractor? Sure. People have been doing them for years. Can you do them better and more safely with a hydrostatic tractor? Just as surely. This is not a matter of debate, except among those who haven't given hydros a chance, have only used ancient versions from before the technology was perfected, or have let their love of gears cloud their vision. I can say that because I was one of the latter for a long, long time. You see, I'm a gearhead, too - that's why I answered your message. My wife has an automatic transmission car, but nothing I buy has an automatic in it. Except my tractor. Sometimes, you've just got to bite the bullet and admit it when technology has improved your options markedly. My advice: do a little more research, get some "demo" time with both, and try to save enough money somewhere else to get the hydro, or go with an "almost new" one. And, the next time you want an answer to a question, don't ask the ones you already know the opinion of. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

butzkeg · May 23, 2002

Yea, what Mark said.

wichiwichi · May 23, 2002

I would go for the gear model. I grew up using a gear tractor but have used both. The price difference and what you give up in horsepower just isn't worth it in my opinion. When I purchased mine the difference in price was more than enough for my finish mower.

MChalkley · May 23, 2002

wichiwichi - Your point may be a valid one, but a clarification is in order. With modern hydrostatics, "what you give up in horsepower" is less than 15% when (and this is important) you're comparing the hydro to a straight gear model but about 5% when you're comparing the hydro to a "shuttle shift", "power reverser", etc. Most dealers, even, don't realize this, so don't even bother to ask 'em. If you want to verify it, talk to your favorite brand's tech/engineering department. So there's always a lot of talk about "what you lose in horsepower", but when you get down to numbers, it's pretty meaningless talk, for most people's needs. Your needs, of course, may vary. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

My own take on this issue is: If you're in a situation where a loss in hp of 5% (or even 15%) is going to regularly cramp your style, you're looking at too small a tractor. Another important factor is that the hydrostatics make so much better use of the horsepower from a traction standpoint (remember, the idea is not to spin the tires, right?) that you can still do more with the less you've got left.

Another point in rebuttal: No amount of horsepower is worth your safety, and hydros are substantially safer, no matter how much or how little experience you've got.

Harv · May 23, 2002

Well, Kip, I ain't no gearhead in the religious sense, but I do have a gear tractor. It's my first and only, but I'm sure my 1 year and 60-some hours in the seat make me almost as qualified as Mark Chalkley, so here's my penny and a half --

You won't miss what you never had. /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

When I was shopping, I never even tried HST. That was mostly 'cuz I was looking for the most tractor I could find for the least number of bucks, just as you are, and that pretty much ruled out HST for me. Even in the used market, the difference was at least a couple of thousand bucks, and since I wanted a FEL and some attachments, I decided I could put up with a manual shift. After all, this is only my first tractor, isn't it?

Fact is, now that I have a feel for what the machine can do, and I'm already thinking about what my next tractor will be, I'm not 100% convinced that I will get HST even then. It will probably come down to budget again (ain't it always that way), and I'll have to choose between extra hydraulics, a 4-in-1 bucket or HST. So far, my choice is already made. HST may have to wait until I win the lottery. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

[Disclaimer: I am obviously HST ignorant, and I am probably just trying to rationalize/justify the tractor I have, so remember the proverbial grain of salt when you read this message.]

Mark may have a point about the safety thing, but to tell the truth, I'm not sure I understand that one. Betcha he may clarify that for us, though.

EdKing · May 23, 2002

The only feature on a hydro that I see as safer, is the fact the tractor stops when you take your foot off the pedal. I'm sorry, but I feel saftey is 95% the operator's responsibility. If you can't opererate a tractor safely, be it gear or hydro, you have no business being on a tractor, or any machinery for that mater. Lets face it, you could kill yourself using a screwdriver if you do something stupid with it. As far as a hydro being more effecient, I won't by that until I see hard facts, such as a fair unbiased test like the Nebraska University tractor tests. Even if the hydro is more efficient, is it that much more to make it a "must have" for your average CUT owner ? I could see if you were using the tractor commercially, and time was money, but even then it would take quite a bit of time to make up for the extra money you have to put out for the hydro at the get go.

I have nothing against hydro, I just get tired of hearing how a gear tractor is so much less effective than a hydro.

DK35vince · May 23, 2002

Hydro's are over rated and to expensive
They won't do anything i can't do right now.
a syncronized transmission with reverser will do it nearly as fast!!

Woodbeef · May 23, 2002

Ahhh....another philosophical question on the meaning of tractor life,eh!

What I feel it all boils down to is:
Get what you are comfortable with and can afford!!

Is one better than the other....hmmm......You know what they say about opinions......

Is one safer than the other....Depends more on the loose nut behind the steeering wheel I'd have to say!

I agree with Mark on the point about the hp loss,get a bigger tractor to begin with!!

MikePA · May 23, 2002

My question, should I get the tractor I want without the hydrostatic transmission or should I go a little smaller and get the hydro.
Kip, I think you answered your own question /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif. You wanted a hydro of a certain horsepower and attachment configuration. Other financial priorities have reduced your tractor budget so you're investigating ways of spending less. While I prefer hydros, I made the recommendation I did, i.e., buy a used version of what you want, because I've been in a similar situation although not about a tractor. I bought something that wasn't really what I wanted and regretted it. I get the impression you're looking for reasons why a gear tractor will be 'just as good'.

My recommendation...Get a used version of what you want, not a new version of what you don't.

Moon · May 23, 2002

I've had a couple tractors with standard transmission, and now i have a hydro. For me hydro is easier by far. But more important going down hills I hardly have to touch the brakes. I feel much safer with the hydro for that situation. If it was my money i'd go hydro.

EdKing · May 23, 2002

I bought something that wasn't really what I wanted and regretted it.

I have to agree with Mike on this 100%. Get what you really want. The point I was making is you shouldn't feel that you would be limited with a gear tractor. If hydro is really what you want, then definitely get it. The only other suggestion I would make, is to go out and test drive both styles of transmission, just to make sure.