Can't Believe the Difference!

_RaT_ · Dec 15, 2005

Re: Can\'t Believe the Difference!

I've been leading a double life. I dabble with synthetics enough to know that very little changed in my life. Engine performance as much as I wanted it to be better, still did what it did, longevity has yet to be determined, my chicken still burns on the BBQ, the car still needs washing, my dog still throws up on the carpet and I still hate paying property tax. Don't write me off to the Jim Jones society yet. I figure if I use synthetic, I can say, "hey, I use both "dino" and full blooded synthetic so don't dare question my knowledge here, I know!". I will still sip the Kool Aid from time to time, hoping it will spin my engine faster at idle all the time wondering if I'm just a sucker walking towards the cliff or about to catch a comet tail to eternal life. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif In the meantime, peace out and nude meditation as we used to say in 8th grade. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

robison · Dec 15, 2005

Re: Can\'t Believe the Difference!

There are certainly strong feelings for/against Mobil 1/Amsoil/ other synthetic brands. Since I referred to Mobil 1 I'll explain why I use it, which really has nothing to do with being better than Amsoil or any other synthetic.

We service many (thousands) of Mercedes, Land Rover, and Porsche cars at my work. Mobil 1 (in differing weights) is the factory recommended oil for those vehicles.

Mercedes oil quality monitor system, for example, is calibrated for Mobil 1 0-40.

BMW has its own synthetic, and again their oil monitor is calibrated for that. So on late model BMWs we use BMW branded synthetic.

In other cars I use Mobil 1 because I have become convinced of the generic benefits of synthetic oil and I have found it's important to install an oil that customers can buy easily if they need more. Mobil is by far the most widely available.

The fuel systems in the above cars are all made by Bosch, and we are Bosch's authorized service agent. So we would never use an oil that a manufacturer service rep would call "wrong" for the car. If Mercedes says Mobil 1 0-40, that's what we are going to use.

That does not mean you should not use Amsoil, nor does it mean I think Mobil is better.

As to the generic benefits . . . we probably do 2,000+ oil changes every year with synthetics. Over the years we have seen all manner of things go wrong. When things go wrong with dino oil, the engine fails. With synthetic, it does not. It's pretty much as simple as that.

I have seen (4 times) filters blow out and engines lose all their oil. Fill them, fit a new filter, and nothing happens. I saw an Audi that blew a oil cooler line in Newport RI and the guy drove is 125 miles back to our shop. We changed the line and refilled it and ever after the valve train was a bit noisy, but that was it. And we serviced it another 50,000 miles.

I have seen synthetic oil engines lose water pumps and get so hot pieces of the hood pad caught fire and the plastic manifolds collapsed from heat. And the engine still spun freely. Dino oil = siezed motor in that situation.

I also have many customers who drive a lot, 30-40-50k per year in MBs and BMWs. We are running those cars 10-15k between changes with Mobil 1 and they are clean and free of wear. Those same people, ten years back in older MB and BMWs, had engine wear with dino oil at 3-5k intervals.

Most of you who consider synthetics do not ever personally have a situation where you will see the difference. In other words, you will never know - does it really make a difference? Service managers who see a lot of syn oiled cars, like me, will see such things regularly.

I have outlined some of the performance benefits you will see with synthetics. You won't see as many performance changes using synthetic in a gas motor but the "insurance" benefits will still be there as will the improved longevity.

And one final thing . . . environmental responsibility

Modern car engines run so clean that one of the major sources of pollution is the waste motor oil drained out on a service. With most of the cars I work on we drain two gallons every time. If we can take a Mercedes owner from 3,000 miles to 12,000 miles between changes while still retaining or even increasing engine life via synthetics we have reduced his waste generation fourfold. That's significant!!

CT_Tree_Guy · Dec 15, 2005

Re: Can\'t Believe the Difference!

Well said John, thank you. Some of your observations, based on hard-to-argue-with real life experiences, remind me of similar comments that I made in a recent, very interesting, and quite heated thread called B7610 Engine Oil.

In it, I commented that " For the amount of extra expense involved, I just switched to Amsoil 10W-30 for the better cold starting and an added degree of protection that it provides in the event of a cooling failure. I see it as like having collision insurance - you probably won't need it, but it can come in handy". , and later, "I think that a rational, scientific examination of all of the information available on the subject of lubricants will come away with the conclusion that there are SOME indisputable benefits to using good synthetic oils over dino oil. As I said, I have become convinced that cold weather performance and added protection in case of overheating are two of those benefits. Are these benefits, IF they exist, worth the extra expense involved? Very hard to say, and I'm not saying that they are. Am I trying to convince others of the conclusions that I have reached for myself? Not exactly. Am I trying to give an opinion that I think might be of some value to other owners of diesel-powered vehicles, with the proviso that I don't know everything, and could be wrong? Yes". 

This leads me to what Sully was asking about - "Unless you live in the Sahara desert..OR Antarctica....if you cant find a "dino" oil that will work for your application...SOMETHING IS WRONG! If someone gets a warm and fuzzy feeling from USING Syn oils..all well and good...but it sure makes a person wonder??? "

To me, it's not a matter of one oil "working" and another oil "not working". I'm repeating myself, but to me it seems to simply come down to whether or not the extra cost involved in benefitting from the well-documented advantages to good synthetic oil is worth it to you. John, I think your post brings home the "insurance" analogy I was making. Further, it seems to make a lot of sense that the cold-temperature characteristics of synthetics must reduce the wear on an engine during the crucial startup and warm-up period. Those are just two of the reasons that I get that warm, fuzzy feeling from using synthetics.

Now, if you all will excuse me, my bonfire is dying down, and I need to go throw some more Amsoil on it - darn wet wood! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Soundguy · Dec 16, 2005

Re: Can\'t Believe the Difference!

( Show me where dino will cost me less than synthetic & I'll go back )

Well.. lets start. First. When you did that filter change, did you not have to add a quart of oil to make up for it.. thus adding the price of another quart?

Also.. If I was using that much oil.. I'd not buy it by the quart.. nor gallong for that matter.. I'd buy it by the keg or drum.

Here are some numbers. Last time we pulled an oil sample at work, using fina sae 30 fleet oil, in a 1980 mack tractor with over 2 million miles on it.. we had good oil at 12000 miles.. ( mind you, tractor also held 10-12 gallons of oil too.. )

I use that same fleet oil in alot of applications.. The price per drum on oil beats the pants off of quart pricing up and down and back again...

Like another poster said.. you may be getting bad 1.50 oil, and find that 1.80 oil ( napa fleet, for instance.. )lasted better and performed better?

with my tractors.. I'f I bought oil by the quart.. I'd have to get a 3rd job. I bring it home in the drum.. same with hyd and transdraulic oil... When yuo are draining 5-6-7-10 gallons of oil at a time.. that per quart, per gallon, and per bucket stuff will eat the lining out of your pants... Typically I'm changing the oil int at least 3-4 tractors at a time.. all together we are talking about 20 gallons of oil per service on just my 4 most used tractors. And as far as extended drains go.. I don't like them on tractors. Changing the oil on a tractor is not only about oil addative life.. it's also about geting rid of soot, acid, moisture, etc... So.. I don't think you can realize the economic savings that an auto might see.. on a yearly or bi yearly tractor service.. etc.

soundguy

Soundguy

_RaT_ · Dec 16, 2005

Re: Can\'t Believe the Difference!

 As to the generic benefits . . . we probably do 2,000+ oil changes every year with synthetics. Over the years we have seen all manner of things go wrong. When things go wrong with dino oil, the engine fails. With synthetic, it does not. It's pretty much as simple as that.

I have seen (4 times) filters blow out and engines lose all their oil. Fill them, fit a new filter, and nothing happens. I saw an Audi that blew a oil cooler line in Newport RI and the guy drove is 125 miles back to our shop. We changed the line and refilled it and ever after the valve train was a bit noisy, but that was it. And we serviced it another 50,000 miles.

I have seen synthetic oil engines lose water pumps and get so hot pieces of the hood pad caught fire and the plastic manifolds collapsed from heat. And the engine still spun freely. Dino oil = siezed motor in that situation. 

Wow, hard to believe. If things got that hot, you would think the aluminum heads would warp regardless of whether synthetic or fossil oil is used. Can the film strength of synthetic be so strong that even the guy who drove his Audi 125 miles or two and a half hours could have suffered no long term ill effects? I thought oil not only lubricated the surfaces but also cooled the surfaces. With no oil and 2 plus hours of driving, it leads one to believe there was divine intervention. If all of this could be validated, why don't the major engine manufactuers just cover their bums and say, if you don't use synthetics, your out of luck on the warranty, no skin off their nose, right? If I was Ford, GM, etc., my first oil fill would be synthetic right out of the factory, after that make it the customers responsibility, refuse to go synthetic and loose the warranty which apparently would be quite easy to fullfill when even the loss of cooling still has no ill effects on the engine componets. Tell me where I'm missing the boat. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif Inquisitive minds want to know. I am truly curious.

Soundguy · Dec 16, 2005

Re: Can\'t Believe the Difference!

( find it interesting that MAKERS or "long duration running engines" ( such as Cat and Cummins) tell owners to FORGET syn oils and use the recommended weight and spec oils they recommend and drain at the intervals they recommend and "all is well". Strange they can build and warranty engines for 450-500,000 miles and yet users of autos feel they have to swap out oil every 3K miles...just to get their engines to run 100,000 miles.
)

I concur. As i posted earlier.. the last oil sample we pulled was on an 80 mack tractor.. with 2+ million miles on it.. at 12000 miles. We were looking for wear metals... specifically.. but the shop dropped the bearings and plastigauged them.. slaped them right back in.. bearing were goo and within acceptable tolerance.

Background.. this truck hauled milk for about 14 years, then went to hauling heavy equipment for us. It's major breakdows include an injector pump, air compressor, and a rear/rear diffy. that it...
Oh yeah.. fina diesel rated sae 30w fleet oil... all it has ever seen with us...

Also.. our cat dealer tells us the same thing.. change the oil at specified intervals.. not extended changes..

Soundguy

kenmac · Dec 16, 2005

Re: Can\'t Believe the Difference!

Mike , I listed some impacts for me. I'am less dependent on oil, I change oil less ,so I don't have as much waste ,over time synthetics save me money (longer drains) in 1 response even you said $18.75 I can only guess you were talking x 5 vehicles . this is real money to me, & if I happen to get better protection than dino(which I have) that's a big plus.Time & time is money. Or worth more than money at my age.

kenmac · Dec 16, 2005

Re: Can\'t Believe the Difference!

I have my oil tested at the local cat dealer & I discussed this with them. The parts mgr. & mechanics said that Cat oil is not your every day dino oil It is blended per cat specs, so it may not by pure dino oil in that Cat bottle It may very well have more adds than the synthetic oil that is out there.

Sully2 · Dec 16, 2005

Re: Can\'t Believe the Difference!

Well..that BRAND is definately good for that purpose! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

But remember now..you never saw me post that SYN oil wasnt GOOD..? I have never and will never say that..because it is..IF a person needs to use it!

Too many ( as cited in the other posting) rely on syn oils to cover their butts when they dont deserve to have their rumps "covered".
Who loses a filter and doesnt realize it?? And when OP goes to ZERO on the meter..you get off the road NOW...INSTANTLY..and after checking things out..probably call "the hook" to come and get you...NOT drive on down the road to the nearest gas station. And the dude with the BMW blowing an oil cooler line..and he DIDNT REALIZE something was "amiss"??? And he drove another 120 miles!!!!!! IMHO..he should STILL be sitting along the highway if he is that "mechanically ignorant"!

Did the "extra protection factor" save his "can"? Sure did! But then again.."some" dont deserve to get the" life preserver" tossed to them when they intentionally went over Niagrra Falls of their own accord.. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Im going to have to go to a Syn oil for my little Kubota..simply because ( other than Kubota branded) I cant..yes..CANT find an oil that will cover the requirements ( all requirements..cold weather startup included) in a plain old Dino oil! And I wont even attempt to go for more hours between changes..and most probably change it MORE often that required..as I normally do on engines.

Only Lord and Kubota know how many hours my little B3030 can run in a lifetime..but I doubt I'll ever get a total of 500 on mine..and Im SURE it will never be "run hard".

robison · Dec 16, 2005

Re: Can\'t Believe the Difference!

( As to the generic benefits . . . we probably do 2,000+ oil changes every year with synthetics. Over the years we have seen all manner of things go wrong. When things go wrong with dino oil, the engine fails. With synthetic, it does not. It's pretty much as simple as that.

I have seen (4 times) filters blow out and engines lose all their oil. Fill them, fit a new filter, and nothing happens. I saw an Audi that blew a oil cooler line in Newport RI and the guy drove is 125 miles back to our shop. We changed the line and refilled it and ever after the valve train was a bit noisy, but that was it. And we serviced it another 50,000 miles.

I have seen synthetic oil engines lose water pumps and get so hot pieces of the hood pad caught fire and the plastic manifolds collapsed from heat. And the engine still spun freely. Dino oil = siezed motor in that situation. 

Wow, hard to believe. If things got that hot, you would think the aluminum heads would warp regardless of whether synthetic or fossil oil is used. Can the film strength of synthetic be so strong that even the guy who drove his Audi 125 miles or two and a half hours could have suffered no long term ill effects? I thought oil not only lubricated the surfaces but also cooled the surfaces. With no oil and 2 plus hours of driving, it leads one to believe there was divine intervention. If all of this could be validated, why don't the major engine manufactuers just cover their bums and say, if you don't use synthetics, your out of luck on the warranty, no skin off their nose, right? If I was Ford, GM, etc., my first oil fill would be synthetic right out of the factory, after that make it the customers responsibility, refuse to go synthetic and loose the warranty which apparently would be quite easy to fullfill when even the loss of cooling still has no ill effects on the engine componets. Tell me where I'm missing the boat. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif Inquisitive minds want to know. I am truly curious. )

Well, RaT, here are the answers:

The overheated engine in my example did have warped aluminum. It was ruined, but it was not seized. The fact that it didn't seize was the amazing thing, and that was because the oil stayed oil and did not turn into black tar.

Why don't the major manufacturers specify synthetics? They do. Mercedes and BMW are both major manufactorers and they both specify the particular synthetics I mentioned. Other makers of high performance cars do the same. Corvette is a domestic example.

It is generally true that trends start out in high end cars and move down market.

Could the guy have gone 125 miles without damage? I said the valve train was noisy ever after, so there was some damage. But again, it didn't seize and it survived.

Doesn't the oil cool the motor too? Yes it does and that lack is probably what harmed the Audi. But it's not that critical in a street car such as we service when driving lightly at 10-20% engine load. This would be a bigger deal in a tractor motor at 80% load, for example.