CT - you'll always have job because of physics challenged guys like me. I've witnessed a professional pull an oak in the opposite direction from an approx 15 degree lean over a road. This tree had all of a 15 degree lean if not more. This was a white oak and with a 30" base. I fretted over dropping this tree way too long and one day while filling up with fuel at a service station - innocently struck up a conversation with a logger. I wasn't asking for favors and provided I never met the guy before, I wouldn't have gotten one anyway. I explained the tree, told him where my land was, and next week I got a bill for $50.00. He left the tree where he laid it down and I wanted the firewood anyway. It was more than fair in my book and a big headache gone. I sent off the check the next day. I saw him again a few weeks later at the same station and he said he was moving his equipment to a different site, drove past my property, hooked up a winch line from his skidder, and that was it. I think that if most of us are honest with ourselves, we aren't pro's and only by the graces of greater powers, we are alive to tell about it! Just my opinion guys - Clyde
Chain Saw Advice
- Thread starter CurlyDave
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John_Mc
Elite Member
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I'd just like to offer my view that it is a properly executed hinge that controls the direction of fall. Again, a good rule of thumb is to have the hinge be about 10% of the diameter of the tree, and the notch cut about 1/4 of the diameter.)</font>
Well said (your whole post, not just the part I quoted above).
I'd like to clarify and add to the description quoted above...
The 10% of diameter rule-of-thumb for the thickness of the hinge is usually taken to be 10% of DBH (Diameter at Breast Height). So if you are cutting down near the ground on a tree that flares greatly at the stump, you don't need a hinge thickness that is 10% of this flared diameter.
Another rule of thumb that helps in gauging how deep to make your notch: The LENGTH of the hinge should be at least 80% of the DBH. If you can get 80% or more of DBH in hinge length with a shallow notch (either due to the shape of the trunk or the fact that you're cutting down in the flare of the stump), that will work fine. If after cutting your notch, the hinge length is less than 80% of DBH, your notch isn't deep enough.
Finally, I'm suprised at how many people I've run into that think it's the depth of the notch that makes the tree fall in the direction you want. This has nothing to do with it. The hinge provides the side to side guidance. A felling wedge or other mechanical means can be used to overcome a reasonable amount of back lean.
John Mc
Well said (your whole post, not just the part I quoted above).
I'd like to clarify and add to the description quoted above...
The 10% of diameter rule-of-thumb for the thickness of the hinge is usually taken to be 10% of DBH (Diameter at Breast Height). So if you are cutting down near the ground on a tree that flares greatly at the stump, you don't need a hinge thickness that is 10% of this flared diameter.
Another rule of thumb that helps in gauging how deep to make your notch: The LENGTH of the hinge should be at least 80% of the DBH. If you can get 80% or more of DBH in hinge length with a shallow notch (either due to the shape of the trunk or the fact that you're cutting down in the flare of the stump), that will work fine. If after cutting your notch, the hinge length is less than 80% of DBH, your notch isn't deep enough.
Finally, I'm suprised at how many people I've run into that think it's the depth of the notch that makes the tree fall in the direction you want. This has nothing to do with it. The hinge provides the side to side guidance. A felling wedge or other mechanical means can be used to overcome a reasonable amount of back lean.
John Mc
markct
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( drove past my property, hooked up a winch line from his skidder, and that was it. I think that if most of us are honest with ourselves, we aren't pro's and only by the graces of greater powers, we are alive to tell about it! Just my opinion guys - Clyde
)</font>
i agree that having a pro do it is the way to go if ya dont feel comftorable. but also i think it should be realized that most trees can be taken down with proper planning, this includes thinkin over what could go wrong and how it can best be prevented, last saturday i helped a friend take down 8 trees, all of which had to go a different way than there natural lean. now we didnt just start sawing saturday morning, we had been looking it over and planning for a few weeks now. with notching and alot of cable and a pulley we dropped them all without any damage. now if we didnt have the cable, pulley, assorted clevises and chains, and my large farm tractor then this job would likely have been best left to the pros, but with the right equipment, and most importantly good planning, most trees can be taken down very predictably
)</font>
i agree that having a pro do it is the way to go if ya dont feel comftorable. but also i think it should be realized that most trees can be taken down with proper planning, this includes thinkin over what could go wrong and how it can best be prevented, last saturday i helped a friend take down 8 trees, all of which had to go a different way than there natural lean. now we didnt just start sawing saturday morning, we had been looking it over and planning for a few weeks now. with notching and alot of cable and a pulley we dropped them all without any damage. now if we didnt have the cable, pulley, assorted clevises and chains, and my large farm tractor then this job would likely have been best left to the pros, but with the right equipment, and most importantly good planning, most trees can be taken down very predictably
CT_Tree_Guy
Platinum Member
Guys - good stuff all around, as always. I sure do love this place.
John Mc, that was particularly good stuff about accounting for root flare, and the 80% rule of thumb on hinge width. And you reminded me of the many times I've observed how little hinge width is gained by going deeper on the notch. You are so right that very often the notch is made unnecessarily deep (and let's not get into felling cuts that are made at a downward angle - yow, just what IS up with that anyway?).
There are at least four reasons not to do that: a) it's much harder to judge where the felling cut will end up relative to the "vee" of the notch cut, making for a dangerous situation, b) it's farther to cut, c) wood cuts better across the grain than on the bias, and d) it makes it much harder to use wedges when they are needed to force the tree over. (Other than that, go for it. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif).
I think maybe some folks have the idea that such a felling cut will keep the tree from falling backwards, but we've already ruled that out by using the careful planning so nicely described by MarkCT, right guys? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
And I'd just like to put in one more "pitch" for having at least 3 ten-inch or 12-inch plastic wedges in your arsenal. One for starting a neutral or slightly back-leaning tree on its way, and then two more to stack together and drive in if the first one hasn't done the trick. (Bailey's and Sherrill are excellent sources for anything tree or saw related, and the Sherrill catalog is a must-have for its many, many excellent illustrations, tips and techniques). Bailey's, 800-322-4539, baileys-online.com; Sherrill 800-525-8873, sherrillinc.com - call 'em today. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Plastic wedges are also VERY handy for getting a pinched saw unstuck - not that I've ever had that happen of course. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
As always, let's be careful out there - I'm quite fond of y'all. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
John
John Mc, that was particularly good stuff about accounting for root flare, and the 80% rule of thumb on hinge width. And you reminded me of the many times I've observed how little hinge width is gained by going deeper on the notch. You are so right that very often the notch is made unnecessarily deep (and let's not get into felling cuts that are made at a downward angle - yow, just what IS up with that anyway?).
There are at least four reasons not to do that: a) it's much harder to judge where the felling cut will end up relative to the "vee" of the notch cut, making for a dangerous situation, b) it's farther to cut, c) wood cuts better across the grain than on the bias, and d) it makes it much harder to use wedges when they are needed to force the tree over. (Other than that, go for it. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif).
I think maybe some folks have the idea that such a felling cut will keep the tree from falling backwards, but we've already ruled that out by using the careful planning so nicely described by MarkCT, right guys? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
And I'd just like to put in one more "pitch" for having at least 3 ten-inch or 12-inch plastic wedges in your arsenal. One for starting a neutral or slightly back-leaning tree on its way, and then two more to stack together and drive in if the first one hasn't done the trick. (Bailey's and Sherrill are excellent sources for anything tree or saw related, and the Sherrill catalog is a must-have for its many, many excellent illustrations, tips and techniques). Bailey's, 800-322-4539, baileys-online.com; Sherrill 800-525-8873, sherrillinc.com - call 'em today. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Plastic wedges are also VERY handy for getting a pinched saw unstuck - not that I've ever had that happen of course. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
As always, let's be careful out there - I'm quite fond of y'all. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
John
turnkey4099
Elite Member
Very good points. Been heating with wood for over 30 years plus helping back when I was a kid. Still learning.
I have a season of cutting coming up soon on a patch that was fire killed about 4 or 5 years ago. I have it almost clear cut now but have 7 or 8 big trees (Willow, around 36" or more DBH) to go this season. Every one of them except one have bad leans and will go where they want to with no problems. The major thing with leaners (after direction of fall of course) is the danger of a barber chair. I am going to try something new this year. Bore cutting the falling cut. Have done a lot of reading on that subject and it looks safer than the normal cut. I will of course be using my usual "heavy log chain above the cuts" before starting to cut. Have had several incipient barberchairs cutting in that patch in the past. It is a real attention getter making a falling cut and seeing the log chain 'snap tight'.
Harry K
I have a season of cutting coming up soon on a patch that was fire killed about 4 or 5 years ago. I have it almost clear cut now but have 7 or 8 big trees (Willow, around 36" or more DBH) to go this season. Every one of them except one have bad leans and will go where they want to with no problems. The major thing with leaners (after direction of fall of course) is the danger of a barber chair. I am going to try something new this year. Bore cutting the falling cut. Have done a lot of reading on that subject and it looks safer than the normal cut. I will of course be using my usual "heavy log chain above the cuts" before starting to cut. Have had several incipient barberchairs cutting in that patch in the past. It is a real attention getter making a falling cut and seeing the log chain 'snap tight'.
Harry K
OP
CurlyDave
Elite Member
Well, here is the update on what happened.
I looked at Stihl and Husky at as number of stores during the week (I am still living in Northern CA, the property is in OR and we are moving up there when I retire in ~ 12 months).
I didn't want to buy in CA because I noticed that there were new emission requirements on chain saws in CA, but not in OR. Plus there is no sales tax in OR.
I went to the Husqvarna store in Grants Pass, which was a much differerent experience than the anything in CA. Anyway, at that point my top choices were Husky 346 XP or Stihl MS 260 Pro.
The guy at the Husqvarna shop said he did not even stock the 346 XP because it was too expensive for his clients. Since it had become obvious that a lot of his customers made a living, or at least extra spending money, with their chainsaws, I decided to listen to him. He said the best one for my purposes was the Husky 350e, which is this years version of the 350. He had both in stock and the 350e was about $20 more, not a huge amount.
Anyway I walked out with a 350e with 18" bar, a case, a helmet and an extra chain. The saw was $299. This compared favorably with prices on the internet, where the 350, with no "e" was $299, but came with 2 extra chains. I only got one extra chain, but got it the day I wanted it and supported a local merchant, who will service it. Instant delivery too.
This seems perfect for my purposes. The store owner claimed that it was the easiest starting saw in the extire store, and the easiest one he had ever seen. While I don't have much comparison, it does start very easily, partly due to a compression release. He said that the 350e is his best selling saw, and I have no reason to not believe him. Easy starting is very important to me.
Anyway, I think I got a very good saw for my purposes, and it will probably outlast me.
I only took down three trees with it on Saturday, mostly because the it has been raining for 3 solid weeks, and the area I was working in was mostly a quagmire.
More tonight -- have to go to work now.
Curly Dave
I looked at Stihl and Husky at as number of stores during the week (I am still living in Northern CA, the property is in OR and we are moving up there when I retire in ~ 12 months).
I didn't want to buy in CA because I noticed that there were new emission requirements on chain saws in CA, but not in OR. Plus there is no sales tax in OR.
I went to the Husqvarna store in Grants Pass, which was a much differerent experience than the anything in CA. Anyway, at that point my top choices were Husky 346 XP or Stihl MS 260 Pro.
The guy at the Husqvarna shop said he did not even stock the 346 XP because it was too expensive for his clients. Since it had become obvious that a lot of his customers made a living, or at least extra spending money, with their chainsaws, I decided to listen to him. He said the best one for my purposes was the Husky 350e, which is this years version of the 350. He had both in stock and the 350e was about $20 more, not a huge amount.
Anyway I walked out with a 350e with 18" bar, a case, a helmet and an extra chain. The saw was $299. This compared favorably with prices on the internet, where the 350, with no "e" was $299, but came with 2 extra chains. I only got one extra chain, but got it the day I wanted it and supported a local merchant, who will service it. Instant delivery too.
This seems perfect for my purposes. The store owner claimed that it was the easiest starting saw in the extire store, and the easiest one he had ever seen. While I don't have much comparison, it does start very easily, partly due to a compression release. He said that the 350e is his best selling saw, and I have no reason to not believe him. Easy starting is very important to me.
Anyway, I think I got a very good saw for my purposes, and it will probably outlast me.
I only took down three trees with it on Saturday, mostly because the it has been raining for 3 solid weeks, and the area I was working in was mostly a quagmire.
More tonight -- have to go to work now.
Curly Dave
Renze
Elite Member
The worst thing we once did was 13 years ago.. We had a huge oak in front of the house, dropping lots of leaves and trash in our garden every year.
Just to be sure we hooked 2 tractors totalling 5,5 ton to make sure we could hold it, and after sawing the last bit pulling it over to the other end.
The tractor driver misunderstood the chainsaw operator and started to pull too early when there was still a foot of tree left, pulled the 25 mm rope in two, and the tree swung back, making very, very scaring noises on the wrong end leaning towards our house, but it swung back upright.... I didnt see any guardian angels stopping the tree but it was a small miracle that it didnt crush our, and our neighbors houses.
after sitting in the bush for 10 years i had the tree sawn to boarding for my manure spreader 2 years ago. It was very fine wood, just the sawyer dulled a blade due to grenade splinters of WW2, which caused blue marks in the tree...
Just to be sure we hooked 2 tractors totalling 5,5 ton to make sure we could hold it, and after sawing the last bit pulling it over to the other end.
The tractor driver misunderstood the chainsaw operator and started to pull too early when there was still a foot of tree left, pulled the 25 mm rope in two, and the tree swung back, making very, very scaring noises on the wrong end leaning towards our house, but it swung back upright.... I didnt see any guardian angels stopping the tree but it was a small miracle that it didnt crush our, and our neighbors houses.
after sitting in the bush for 10 years i had the tree sawn to boarding for my manure spreader 2 years ago. It was very fine wood, just the sawyer dulled a blade due to grenade splinters of WW2, which caused blue marks in the tree...
gemini5362
Veteran Member
I read the post by John and thought it was excellent advice. If I may I might like to add a bit and maybe disagree with one thing. The advice he gave was really top notch. I live in the Ozark Mountains in Arkansas. While I am not an expert on felling trees I have made a few mistakes and been very happy to be able to tell about them later. Chain Saws-
I have been very partial to Mcculoch chain saws. There are still a lot of the older ones without much useleft in them that are great chain saws. I have an eager beaver which I like a lot. I have let My chain saw sit in storage for three years. ( I was living overseas) came back took it out of storage and then filled it with gas followed the correct starting procedure and it fired right up. ( that is three to 4 pulls max from not used for years)
When I mix my chainsaw gas now I also mix in a preservative so that if I dont use the saw for a while the gas dont evaporate and leave varnish. I do disagree with John about the chain. I think useing a low kickback chain is a very important safety feature. They are designed to minimize chain saw kickback and to me that is the most hazardous risk with the chainsaw itself.
Felling trees. I cant agree enough with what john said about an exit route. Before I touch any tree I look around the site make sure there are no trip hazards and plan where I am going to run if i have to. When I have made my hinge I also like to set my saw down a few feet away before attempting to push the tree over. I cut a hinge too deep once and when I pushed on the tree it broke at the hinge and the tree jumped off of the stump. I didnt wait to see where it was going I just took off on my exit route as fast as i could. When I heard the tree hit the ground I stopped running. If your tractor is big enough you might want to consider pushing some of the trees over instead of cutting and for the bigger ones maybe a one time hire of a bulldozer if one can get in to the area.
Good luck with your search. I am sure you have tried ebay but if not that is a good place to look and get ideas
I have been very partial to Mcculoch chain saws. There are still a lot of the older ones without much useleft in them that are great chain saws. I have an eager beaver which I like a lot. I have let My chain saw sit in storage for three years. ( I was living overseas) came back took it out of storage and then filled it with gas followed the correct starting procedure and it fired right up. ( that is three to 4 pulls max from not used for years)
When I mix my chainsaw gas now I also mix in a preservative so that if I dont use the saw for a while the gas dont evaporate and leave varnish. I do disagree with John about the chain. I think useing a low kickback chain is a very important safety feature. They are designed to minimize chain saw kickback and to me that is the most hazardous risk with the chainsaw itself.
Felling trees. I cant agree enough with what john said about an exit route. Before I touch any tree I look around the site make sure there are no trip hazards and plan where I am going to run if i have to. When I have made my hinge I also like to set my saw down a few feet away before attempting to push the tree over. I cut a hinge too deep once and when I pushed on the tree it broke at the hinge and the tree jumped off of the stump. I didnt wait to see where it was going I just took off on my exit route as fast as i could. When I heard the tree hit the ground I stopped running. If your tractor is big enough you might want to consider pushing some of the trees over instead of cutting and for the bigger ones maybe a one time hire of a bulldozer if one can get in to the area.
Good luck with your search. I am sure you have tried ebay but if not that is a good place to look and get ideas
turnkey4099
Elite Member
Renz - had much the same experience back when I was still thinking I knew what I was doing. Tall locust right next to the house, crawled up a long ladder tied off to my PU, made undercut, back cut and hit PU to pull - rope broke. Great, I now had the fun of crawling up that ladder again into a tree that is on the verge of falling the wrong way. This time I did it right, chain and cable.
Lesson learned. I don't use rope since then, it is all either heavy log chain or wire cable.
Harry K
Lesson learned. I don't use rope since then, it is all either heavy log chain or wire cable.
Harry K
firemanpat2910
Platinum Member
The first pic that 1948Berg shows reminds me of a funny story. I am on the VFD and one saturday around noon got a
call for a tree on a house. One new homeowner and his F-I-L
were taking down a Huge tree 1 ft from back of house.
wind caught it when it was cut 80% or more. pinched saw,and
leaned tree almost on the house. We tried every thing to pull
it down to no avail. Then I wrapped a chain around the tree
to make a pushing "ledge" and blocked against the house and
used the 3' ram from the JAWS of life. And pushed it right where I wanted it . Now for the funny part, We get done and no sooner than the tree hits the ground the owner is saying
thank you now can you leave before my wife gets back from the store, if she sees a fire truck in the yard Ill never hear the
end of it, and the father in law pipes in and she will probably
sell our chainsaws. We loaded up the truck and snuck out the
back dive laughing all the way.
call for a tree on a house. One new homeowner and his F-I-L
were taking down a Huge tree 1 ft from back of house.
wind caught it when it was cut 80% or more. pinched saw,and
leaned tree almost on the house. We tried every thing to pull
it down to no avail. Then I wrapped a chain around the tree
to make a pushing "ledge" and blocked against the house and
used the 3' ram from the JAWS of life. And pushed it right where I wanted it . Now for the funny part, We get done and no sooner than the tree hits the ground the owner is saying
thank you now can you leave before my wife gets back from the store, if she sees a fire truck in the yard Ill never hear the
end of it, and the father in law pipes in and she will probably
sell our chainsaws. We loaded up the truck and snuck out the
back dive laughing all the way.