Chinese 1-ton mini questions

[sansbury]

I've owned a Deere 1025R TLB for the past few years and the idea of a mini-ex has been gnawing at me for the past couple months. Close to pulling the trigger, but would love to hear some more feedback from those who've been there done that before I light 10-15 grand on fire. Mostly interested in hearing from people who own or have laid their hands on one of these machines for more than 5 minutes versus people just telling me "don't buy Chinese junk" or whatever*.

I started out writing a 1000-word essay about my site/projects/etc. but thinking about it, I really have a few specific questions/concerns:

1. Am I a dupe for considering Kymron and Groundhog versus buying a machine right off the boat? I don't mind paying a few grand more for a slightly upgraded machine (better hydraulics, cooling, controls), with maybe a bit more QC, and somebody in the US to call when I need a part. I don't want to pay a few grand more just for somebody to paint their name on the boom, though.

2. Am I stupid to think a gas machine (such as YH14 | Kymron) is enough? My Deere 260B hoe has generally been strong enough for what I want to do, it's just slow if you're doing more than digging one smallish hole in one place. I am assuming these gas machines have about the same digging ability. As a homeowner with a small (~3 acre) site, I would expect to put *at most* 50hrs/year on a machine (my tractor is at 105 after 3.5 years), and that maintenance on the little Briggs would be simpler for a DIY guy than the small diesels.

3. Stability: These small machines look a bit tippy to me, and my site is not crazy steep but very much not pancake flat either. I don't need or expect to carry 800-pound logs across a 30% grade, but I don't want to feel like I'm going to die going down a 10-20° incline either. I can drive my tractor just about everywhere on my site, but there are parts where I have to be careful, especially if I'm carrying something heavy. I looked at an Agrotek FF12 locally the other day, and it seemed really top-heavy to me though part of that may have been the hydraulics being super twitchy.

The Kymron/Groundhog machines I'm looking at have retractable tracks so I'd get a little better lateral stability that way, but I'm also concerned about being able to safely transit up and down slopes. I'm also open to running on steel tracks if that made a critical difference, since almost all of my work would be off turf or pavement out in the field/woods. On the smallest machines they add about 600 pounds right at the bottom which seems like it would add a lot of stability.

4. Floatation/ground pressure: A lot of my site gets very wet/inundated in the spring and sometimes mid-late fall when there's a lot of rain or snow melt and not enough sun and heat to dry it out, and my tractor can't cross these areas without digging in and getting stuck. Am I correct to think that the mini-ex would perform better since the ground pressure would be much lower, or would it just dig a bigger hole? My one good thing here is that the steeper spots generally drain well so I'm less concerned about sliding down a muddy hill.

* And yes, I *have* considered buying used and renting. Out here I almost never see used machines under ~$25-30k, and I'm not looking to buy a machine, use it for a year and sell it when I'm done. Renting is an option, but I'm not retired and if I'm lucky I get 1-3 days a week to work if the weather is good, and I don't have a big truck and trailer so it costs $300 just for delivery and pickup plus $400/day so it adds up fast.

Thanks again!

 

[MattB4]

1. No, but you would have to decide if the extra cost was justified.
2. Maybe, because I do not know the use you will put it to. Be aware that these things move slooow!
3. Not terribly stable when digging, lifting and the hydraulics can really throw you about if you do not do everything carefully. Stable enough to run ("run" who am I kidding snails move faster) along and climb reasonable slopes.
4. Flotation being only about a 1-ton on tracks there is not much ground pressure.

I have owned a Typhon Terror 1-Ton for about a 1 year now. It did a few jobs for me but my experience is that for a hole digger in soft soil, and trencher where there is not much rocks, it is adequate. If you want to do more heavy duty land work you really need a bigger heavier machine.

 

[sansbury]

Thanks, Matt, that's good input.

I'm aware of the (lack of) speed. It's 900' between the two farthest points on my lot, and in practical use more like half that from the garage area to most points. If I was looking to move material long distances or grade a larger area I have the tractor loader and box blade.

My biggest project would probably be drainage trenching. I haven't worked out all the elevations and distances but I think the first phase would be around 200-300' depending on how aggressive I want to be. I could see where a bigger machine could do that easily in a day or two. If it takes me 5 or 6 that's fine.

If I wanted to be efficient I could probably just pay somebody to do it a lot faster. But where's the fun in that I also think that it's likely going to work better doing it one section at a time and seeing how it works versus just dropping 800' of drain in every direction.

 

[paulsharvey]

So, I'll address it more from a size issue, not the China vs name brand side. The 1.4 ton machines are extremely small. They are more a replacement for a helper with a shovel than a piece of heavy equipment. Larger roots, heavy clays, rocks, ect, as well as digging anywhere you are trying to out dig ground water, you're going to have trouble. Once you move into the Jd-27; Cat-302.5 class machines (size I mean), you gain a lot of capability. What I'm trying to say; if you think there is a chance you need something in the YH-20D class, although it's a significant jump in price ($15.9k, but 2 ton, and yanmar diesel), it's also a significant jump in ability.

 

[paulsharvey]

I should say, If what you need is a 1t/1.4t machine, that's fine, I'm not beating it up, just if your needing a 2 or 2.5t machine, the time to consider that is now.

 

[sansbury]

Thanks Paul. In terms of capability, my comparison is to the 260B hoe on my 1025R, as that's the only piece of "real equipment" I've ever had. Based on specs, my impression was that it would be pretty equivalent to the 1t machines in terms of strength.

I haven't found it to be badly underpowered for my work but then I haven't ever run something a class up so what do I know? The gain in going to the mini-ex would be the mobility/ease of repositioning while digging plus having one machine to dig and another to move material or what have you.

Your point is taken though that it's usually better to be a little oversized than a little undersized. Much to think about.

 

[paulsharvey]

I would expect it to be a mixed bag compared to the 1025. The actual operation of the hoe, digging, moving, digging more, the ability to swing 360 degrees, all will be a great advantage. The 1t/1.4t machines, however, are taller, lighter, and have less weight countering the hoe. The tracks are also pretty narrow, as well as the travel speed will be a slow walk.

With that said, having two machines, one to dig and one to back fill, will be an advantage.

 

[paulsharvey]

Point #4; I didn't see that at first. Look closely at the ground clearance and the track drive motors, as well as the center pivot bearing. Some of the micro hoes only have like 3" of ground clearance. Mix that with narrow tracks, and it could bottom out in soft ground pretty easily. Sure, you should be able to work yourself out, between hoe and push blade, but it's gonna get old the 5th time, and you'll make a mess.

 

[sansbury]

Well as it turns out I had some time free today and took a trip to check these guys out. They seem to have started out importing Chinese machines to Australia and then a couple outlets in Canada, and opened up here in the northeast US back in April. The GM has been in the machinery business for 20 years and said they are working on building up a full US presence with local support and parts.

I looked at both the 1-ton diesel mini and the 2-ton.

UHI Machinery UME12P Mini Excavator 2,660lbs. Kubota Engine

* Kubota 13.8HP Engine * Swing boom; Expandable track * Manual quick hitch for easy changing attachments Package price $13,950including 8” Trenching bucket, 15’’ Digging bucket, 31” Grading bucket, Rake, 8" Auger, Manual quick hitch, Hydraulic thumb plus 3 year peace-of-mind warranty! *...

uhimachinery.com

UHI Machinery UME18 Mini Excavator 4,330lbs. Kubota Engine

* Kubota D902 15.8HP Engine * Swing boom; high/low travel speed; Expandable track * Hydraulic quick hitch for easy changing attachments Package price $23,600 including 8” Trenching bucket, 16” Digging bucket, 39” Grading bucket, Ripper, Hydraulic quick hitch, Hydraulic thumb and 3 year...

uhimachinery.com

The 1-ton retails for $14K with a pretty good set of attachments and the 2-ton goes for 24k with a similar attachment package. Both have side swing booms, retractable tracks, and pilot controls.

The 1-ton seems like a very good deal as it's priced similar to the gas minis but has a Kubota diesel. I didn't go over the machine with a fine tooth comb but overall layout and fit and finish seemed good and comparable to my Deere 1025R. Operation was definitely a lot smoother than the FF12-type machine I looked at earlier in the week. It is also a ~2500lb machine so a little heavier than the small gas powered ones.

The 2-ton felt like a significantly bigger machine but didn't feel as much smoother as I expected it to, particularly the track controls. I don't know if the valves needed some adjusting but the control levers had a lot of throw to them, but they went from fully closed to fully open in a very small amount of the movement so the machine felt a bit jerky, in some ways more so than the smaller machine. One of the mechanics said that he felt the 2-ton was a much more stable and smooth machine overall and would be his choice if he was buying one for general use.

I think where I'm at is I'm going to spend some time digging with my little backhoe and see what I think and whether I really want/need a bigger machine. This whole shebang started with me seeing the 1-ton machines for like 10k, and now I'm considering spending over 2x that and that's starting to feel like too much money to buy on an impulse.

 

[mike0000]

I’m pretty happy with my Kymron YH 14, it has side swing and expandable tracks. I have 20 hrs on it so far. I have added an electric fan and an exhaust extension as the engine compartment gets very hot. Gas Briggs and Stratton engine. It surprises me on what it will do, I’ve worked it pretty hard with no real problems. I will say the side swing will “move around” a bit with excavator use. Not a big issue just a small annoyance that I have to occasionally return it to center, the hyd. Thumb sinks down on its own a little bit too, again not a big issue. It is tippy, especially going downhill carrying a load. I have added about 220lbs of counterweight to the rear, which has helped, but I still must respect the danger of the possibility of a rollover. I’m currently removing some huge stumps in prep for a future shop build. I’m also using my Kubota L3901 for the heavy lifting. I’m getting work done with the mini ex I never could have done without it. I’ve wanted an Excavator for a long time, sure I’d like a larger one but this one is a pretty good fit for a smaller property, as they say it sure beats a shovel.

 

[D'oh]

90 hours on my 1.2 Ton JF12. 85 of those hours dealing with a Clay Soup Hole and Draining it.

When I say Soup Hole, I mean you can Hand Bury a 12' Pipe Pole into it, so Floatation is a Concern. I Cordaroy a trail with 8' 2x6's, 4 under the tracks will hold the machine up in all but the soupest areas.

An 8' Railroad Tie can be picked up at full reach and swung 360 degrees without tipping. However, walking on uneven terrain can throw you off the seat quickly. Even a 3" drop, at the worst time.

Heat is the biggest concern. Worse when using the Walking Motors. Running without the back cover on helps, wrapping the muffler with Exhaust Tape, etc.

Walking Speed is really slow, think before you move.

They are Much More than a Helper with a Shovel, Shudda had one when I helped in digging a Basement out by Shovel! They are not a CAT or JD, but then again the Bank Account is also still there.

 

[sansbury]

Well, as of right now I have a quote for a UME18 from UHI in my hands.

UHI Machinery UME18 Mini Excavator 4,330lbs. Kubota Engine

* Kubota D902 15.8HP Engine * Swing boom; high/low travel speed; Expandable track * Hydraulic quick hitch for easy changing attachments Package price $23,600 including 8” Trenching bucket, 16” Digging bucket, 39” Grading bucket, Ripper, Hydraulic quick hitch, Hydraulic thumb and 3 year...

uhimachinery.com

I spent some time this past weekend out in my jungle with the 1025R and it kind of made my decision for me. A lot of the areas I want to operate in are somewhat uneven, and I realized how the TLB setup is a much more stable platform with a very large effective counterweight and the stabilizers. I felt like I could probably pull it off with a 1-ton but I'd probably end up spending a lot more time inching my way around and digging to level the ground before doing the actual project.

Also, while the 260B hoe is strong enough, I realized I spent about 20+ minutes digging a few feet of trench 36" deep, where I might be digging a couple hundred feet like that, among other things. So I may have been underestimating the value of a little more power.

While I'm happy with my 1025R, in hindsight if I was doing it over I would have bought the 2025 (or comparable). It's enough machine, but a little more would have been a lot better, and this is kind of the same situation I think.

As for UHI, their pluses are that their US HQ is sort of local to me (~2 hour drive), the machine has a good feature set and components, and it's on the heavier side of its peer set (~4200#).

I will say I liked the smaller 12P a lot, and could see it being a great machine for a lot of folks.

 

[paulsharvey]

That looks like a good choice to me.

 

[sansbury]

Just a quick update - machine was delivered last week and I've put about 4 hours on it. This is my first experience with an excavator so YMMV. Overall, a good experience so far. Thoughts:

- Attachments were larger than expected, especially the auger. I'd seen the smaller sized ones for the 1-ton machine but not these. This thing looks like it could drill for oil.

- The machine feels stable and well-planted moving around my very not flat site. To move it from my driveway to the "outback" I had to traverse some pretty steep slopes (think >20°) and had no trouble doing so going very slow using the bucket as a stabilizer. Didn't even mark the wet grass very much so long as I kept turns very gradual.

- The track pedals are not ideally shaped or positioned. They are fine going forwards, but going backwards I have to push the pedal down fairly far to get it to move and it's slightly awkward as my foot just doesn't twist back that far that easily. Maybe it would be easier if I was wearing heels lol. I could see trying to mod this a little.

- On the whole, the controls feel slightly smoother than the ones on my Deere 1025R/260B backhoe. That thing is twitchy as heck and will jerk you around badly if you're not concentrating on controlling it. I spent some time pulling brush with the rake and just practicing skimming the ground like you would to pull a grade and getting the motion started slowly on both cylinders feels like when I started learning to drive a MT. There is a good amount of motion in the sticks before the valves start to open and I'm guessing (but don't know!) this might be one of the things that are nicer when you spend 2x as much on a Japanese-built machine.

- The thumb is a lot harder to use than I expected as it only has maybe 110° or so of movement from folded completely back against the dipper. This gives a fairly narrow window of bucket/thumb placement where you can actually get a good grip on something. I don't know if this is a design limitation or if this is how all/most minis are. I know you're supposed to avoid curling against the thumb so maybe this is deliberate to make that less likely?

- Tearing out some invasive rose bushes really got me taking a hard look at all the long hoses, especially the one that runs out to the quick-change coupler. That looks about 10' long and flaps around a bit in the breeze at the end where I feel like it could easily get caught and yanked badly in the woods. Has me wondering if it would make sense to get a hard line made for the boom run, or maybe just have a coupler added a few feet back from the end so that if it does get shredded I don't have to pull the whole hose. That said, I think it would be fine when digging.

- The powered attachments were delivered with basic hoses without quick-change couplers and one of them had different size fittings than the machine. The delivery guys talked me through getting fittings from a local shop which should be easy enough, but I'd have happily paid the dealer a few bucks more to have them do it. Another case of "you get what you pay for."

- Last, the single most serious flaw I've discovered so far, that tells you the manufacturer does not understand the needs of the US market AT ALL:

It doesn't come with a cupholder!

 

[D'oh]

Awesome review! Glad you are Happy so far.

My Cup Holder sticks down in the Engine Compartment, Good for Coffee, not good for Cold Beverages!

I spiral Sliced some old Garden Hose and guarded my Stick Hoses with that. Where they loop from the Boom. They seem to be the most exposed on my machine.

101 hrs now

 

[sansbury]

I spiral Sliced some old Garden Hose and guarded my Stick Hoses with that. Where they loop from the Boom. They seem to be the most exposed on my machine.

Interesting idea - I'll keep that one filed away.

I think my biggest concern is snagging a line on something and ripping it off, but I suppose every bit helps, and I have plenty of scrap hose around from that time I accidentally drove over some with a brush hog

 

[1hp]

just got some of this for my thumb hoses.

2x 5/8 Hydraulic Hose Spiral Wrap 10f Wire Protector Cover Guard Cable Organizer | eBay

Though primarily designed for use with hydraulic hoses, our spiral wrap can be used for any application where cables, wires, and other similar lines need protection or organization. The rigid tapered design allows for strength and pliability for ease of installation and removal.

www.ebay.com