CK 25 will not start

   / CK 25 will not start #41  
Before u remove the pump or call the dealer to come get your machine {$$$} are u planning on doing any testing??
Could be a clogged fuel tank outlet line?? {no fuel}
Could be a blown fuse to the shut off solenoid, if it has 1.. {not a pull cable}
Heck, it could be a clogged filter?? Do u have fuel AT the pump inlet??
 
   / CK 25 will not start #42  
I am getting fuel from the fuel pump to the filter. Filter was replaced about 15 hrs ago. I believe mine has the shut off solenoid(if that is the same as the stop solenoid) as it is a 2005 model. I can hear it click when I turn the key. I had removed the oil fill port and could see the pin and throttle but wasn't sure what I'm looking for. I was going to pull the stop solenoid and see if I can move the rack pin? I'm hoping it is electric. A couple weeks ago I thought I had a dead battery and after charging for a little bit it started. Today I went out and it started right up so I'm thinking the battery issue a couple weeks back might be the culprit today the more I think about it. Just not sure what is supposed to be clicking when I turn the key. I do know that for the last year or so when I turn the key to start and warm the glow plugs the yellow indicator light on the dash goes out after turning and holding the key then when the tractor starts the glow plug light stays on for about 15-20 seconds or so. Don't know if that has anything to do with it. My set up looks like the one in this link.
 
   / CK 25 will not start #43  
The shutoff solenoid is attached on the right side in the picture with two bolts and a rubber boot.
 
   / CK 25 will not start #44  
The first thing I would do is turn the key switch to ON. Verify you hear the distinct "clack" of the stop solenoid retracting. Wait a few seconds and turn the key OFF and verify you heat the distinct "clack" of the stop solenoid extending (which would stop the engine if it was running). If you don't get the second clack, the stop solenoid is not holding in the retract position (hold coil) which could be a bad fuse.

A simple test for the stop solenoid (SS) if to remove (unbolt) the solenoid and see if it will start. Just be prepared to stop the engine with the manual shutoff if it starts. This stop solenoid must be retracted (or removed) to allow the engine to run. If the engine starts and runs with the stop solenoid removed, there are several possible root causes (bad SS (rare), bad "pull" relay (common), bad fuse, etc.) but it's an easy fix once you isolate the cause

With the SS removed, the injection pump rack/pin should move all the way forward (under light spring pressure) to rest against the governor arm. You should also be able to slide it aft with moderate finger pressure through the removed oil fill plate. If it's jammed and won't move you likely have a failed injection pump gear (control sleeve). You can also losten one of the "nuts" on an injector to see if any fuel comes out when the engine cranks.

Other non IP "no start" causes include: glow plugs may not be working, lift pump, fuel not reaching the injection pump, air leak in the fuel line, etc.

If the injection pump has actually failed again, don't despair. I believe the current replacement control sleeves (the things with the gear teeth that break) are improved but these improved ones probably were not available when your IP was previously rebuilt. The actual IP rebuild is very easy but also easy to do wrong if you are not careful. The needed IP rebuild parts are less than $100 from most Zexel (formerly Bosch) shops.

Removing the old IP is the hard part. You'll need to remove or externally secure the hood because the bracket for the hood strut must come off. The injection hard lines must be removed and there is little space to get a wrench on those nuts. The intake manifold must come off and you'll want to have a new manifold gasket on hand. You need to remove the pre-load assembly to the left (aft) of the IP and the SS to the right (forward) without dropping the plastic "hat" into the crankcase. Disconnect and clamp off fuel hoses to the IP so fuel doesn't drain.

At that point removing the IP is simply a matter of unscrewing the bolts and nuts. When the IP is rebuilt, all the old parts need to go back in exactly the same place; for example, the plunger and roller tappet from cylinder #1 need to go back into cylinder #1. If you do that and keep the old IP shims, the IP does not need to be calibrated or the injection re-timed after rebuild.

If you are not confident in your ability, any mechanic should be able to remove and install the IP and any Zexel shop should be able to do the rebuild, quite inexpensively (compared to a new IP). ThePumpGuySC would probably be happy to do the rebuild; he was an enormous help to me with technical advice when I rebuilt mine this spring.
 
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   / CK 25 will not start #45  
I know I heard the distinct first click from the stop solenoid, not sure about the second click from the solenoid. I will try that tomorrow.
 
   / CK 25 will not start #46  
This new (post 2005) stop solenoid has two coils: pull and hold. The pull coil draws a lot of current and is energized through a relay for one second when the key is turned ON. The hold coil is low current and is powered directly from the ON contacts of the key switch (through a fuse). If the hold coil isn't powered (or has failed) the stop solenoid goes right back to the stop position after one second.
 
   / CK 25 will not start #47  
Kioti's can have one of two different styles of engine stop solenoids.
It is important to identify which one you have.

The number of electrical terminals on the solenoid tells the story. If there is one wire to the solenoid, it will work by being powered for about 16 seconds when the key is turned to OFF.
There is a timer which controls this. In short, power to the solenoid stops the engine. These systems are falling out of favor as a dead battery can mean you cannot stop the engine once it is running.
The other style of engine stop solenoid has three wires going to the solenoid. The solenoid has a pull in coil and a hold coil within its body. It also has a spring. The spring pushes the solenoid to cut off fuel once there is not power going to it. The pull in coil works briefly and then the hold coil takes over white the tractor is running.

You need to make certain the solenoid is operating freely.
This is the check of the later solenoid.

IL6yAtH.jpg


Try and identify which solenoid style you have and report back. a picture of the injection pump and cut off solenoid would be great.

Dave M7040
 
   / CK 25 will not start #48  
Dave: Minor tweak-- some of the early versions of the new solenoid only used two wires and used the block for the ground.
 
   / CK 25 will not start #49  
I'm at work now, but I will try to get a pic later today when I get home.
 
   / CK 25 will not start #50  
CK25 IP.JPGCK25 SS.JPG

Here are pics of my IP and one of the stop solenoid. So after checking fuses and making sure it was getting fuel I decided to take the stop solenoid off as well as the oil fill plug and the manual stop lever plate which you can see in the pic. So the rail is stuck in the closed position so I used my finger to pry it towards the front of the tractor and it finally moved. So I worked it back and forth a few times and it was moving freely so I re-assembled it back and it started right up. Then as soon as I gave it a little fuel it started to race so I throttled back down and it stalled and wouldn't re-start so I am going to say that something in the IP is not right. Do these gum up? or is that just wishful thinking? I think I'll give my dealer a call on Wednesday to see what he has to say as they were the ones that sent it out to get rebuilt back in 2010 with 238 hrs on the meter, and now it has happened again with 579 hrs on the meter.
 
   / CK 25 will not start #51  
Wishful thinking. These latest observations indicate one or more broken gear teeth on a control sleeve. The rack should (must) be able to move smoothly. Remove the IP and replace all three control sleeves with new.

Added: On a positive note, you can get the engine to run so you can remove the loader, which makes the IP R/R much easier. You can also be able to move the tractor to a place suitable for the repair work. Just don't let the engine over rev.
 
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   / CK 25 will not start #52  
Yeah, the more I think back to 2010 when it happened I'm wondering if they only replaced the one that was broken instead of all three back then. What's the odds of have to have this done twice inside 579 hrs. I was telling a friend(who is pretty knowledgeable about this kind of stuff) about what was going on and that I may pull the IP to have it rebuilt and he said what about timing. I said I haven't got that far. So what is the deal if I pull the IP should I attempt this or send it to someone. Can someone explain the timing thing?
 
   / CK 25 will not start #53  
When the IP is first built, it is calibrated on a special "Diesel bench" so each cylinder "fires" at the same travel/position of the roller tappets. This requires professional expertise and equipment; not a DIY job. But as long as the IP is reassembled with all parts going back into their original location the original calibration is still good. Of course, re calibration can't hurt (correct for wear) but it should not be needed.

The injection timing is set by the thickness of the shim between the IP and the crankcase. As long as you keep those sane shims and torque the IP bolts to spec the timing should not change.

Your friend may be familiar with automotive Diesels which quite are different. The cam that drives your tractor IP is in the block so removing the IP does nor effect the cam timing. The automotive IP cam is inside the IP and it is typically driven by the timing chain. That style IP needs timing to be reset after installing the IP.
 
   / CK 25 will not start #54  
OK, thanks. I was also just reading your other thread where you rebuilt your IP. Are the part numbers for the gear teeth all the same for these IPs? Meaning a CK25 vs CK30 vs DK45?? Or do I need to try to find the number on my IP that thepumpguy had mentioned in one of these threads?

Also, what is the torque of the IP bolts? or actually any of the bolts like to the intake manifold? I haven't finished reading all the threads so wasn't sure if it was in those.
 
   / CK 25 will not start #55  
As far as I know, all of these IPs use the same control sleeve. I don't recall the torque values. Do you have a service manual?

Additional: If you decide to rebuild the IP yourself, just do one cylinder at a time. That way parts can't get swapped between cylinders. In addition to calibration, the plungers and cylinders are matched sets and may jam or have excessive bypass if swapped. During this process, it's important to avoid getting dirt or grit in the IP, hard lines, or injectors. I pressure-washed my engine before I started the job.
 
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   / CK 25 will not start #57  
If you lost throttle control, DO NOT run it.. Its the pump, prob. lost another segment??
Just take it off & manually move the control rack on the pump back & forth.. It should fall/move freely..
Your NOT gonna get any "warranty" on that if that's what your thinkin??{broken segment} Most have a 1 year warranty regardless of hrs..
& if its sticking because of FUEL.. Well that's on YOU..
I'd be happy to have a look at it/repair it for you.. Just send me an email or PM.. TPG
 
   / CK 25 will not start #58  
If you lost throttle control, DO NOT run it.. Its the pump, prob. lost another segment??
Just take it off & manually move the control rack on the pump back & forth.. It should fall/move freely..
Your NOT gonna get any "warranty" on that if that's what your thinkin??{broken segment} Most have a 1 year warranty regardless of hrs..
& if its sticking because of FUEL.. Well that's on YOU..
I'd be happy to have a look at it/repair it for you.. Just send me an email or PM.. TPG

Thanks for the offer TPG. My CK25 is a 2005 and well past warranty. Heck, Kioti wouldn't even help cover the labor cost back in 2010 when the IP failed with 238 hrs on the meter. Since then I have been using the additive that my new dealer recommended and the "sticking" was me just hoping that could have been the problem, meaning possibly and easier fix. I have been contemplating replacing the control sleeves my self and I am in no rush, meaning doing one at a time so as not to screw it up. After doing valve adjustments on my kids 4 stroke dirtbikes, I've learned to take my time and check twice. I also was able to locate an online copy of the service manual so I have the torque sequence and values too now.
 
   / CK 25 will not start #59  
The sticky post at the top of this section has a link to a site (it's a table) that includes multiple potential sources for new control sleeves. Some are much cheaper than others. The ones I got from Conestoga Diesel were on the expensive side but also included the O-ring and washer for rebuilding the delivery valves. But don't mess with the delivery valves unless they are leaking; save those parts in case one leaks in the future.
 
   / CK 25 will not start #60  
Yeah I was going to go the "only fix it if it's broke" approach. But, I am going to replace all 3 control sleeves as I'm thinking back in 2010 when the dealer sent it out they only replaced the broken one, not all of them. But yes, I did see the link for the potential sources. Thanks.
 
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