Going on vacation so I will try when I get back. Just to make sure we are same page. Tractor did not quit while running. Instead, I turned it off and tried starting it 5 mins later. I did have a flaky terminal on the battery. Thought that was the issue. Replaced the battery and positive terminal. Tractor still did not start even with glow light (on then going off) and all other ignition lights ok. That's what then led me down the path of it being a fuel related issue.
CK25 will not start
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ritcheyvs
Veteran Member
Econ: I think we are on the same page
The two things I think of when "ran fine, turned off, won't restart" happens are glow plugs and IP. Glow plugs because they aren't needed to keep the engine running, only to get it started except if the engine is still hot it will usually start even without glow. The IP because the stop solenoid forces the rack to the full-off position, abruptly and forcibly. There are multiple reports on this site of confirmed IP damage following engine shutdown.
I tossed out the delivery valve theory because they are easy to check and multiple delivery valve spring failures have been reported here. If that's not the problem you'll need to pull the IP. Reinstalling delivery valves on the IP can be tricky but if the IP is toast anyway, who cares.
Finally a disclaimer: I am not a tractor mechanic but I've owned and maintained a couple old Mercedes Diesel cars and there is a lot of similarity.
That is how my tractor did also. Had been using it to rack and bale hay most the day. Backed it into metal building, turned it off to disconnect baler, then tried to restart to move to different place in building and nothing. However have successfully removed IP two days ago and verified rack was stuck in off position. After turning IP upside down it freed the rack and could move a couple of times before sticking in full on position. Then found a very thin piece of metal on rack teeth that liked just like one of the tiny teeth on the control gears that move the plunger/cylinder in the IP. So i feel for sure now that i have broken teeth on control gear.
Question Scott,
The contol gear teeth and rack appear to be exposed to outside engine oil not fuel. If this is correct how could this defect be related to "bad fuel".
Hope this will help u Econ99. and hope yours is just air trapped somewhere.
thanks
ritcheyvs
Veteran Member
Real good question. All the stuff in the bottom of the IP (cams, tappets, rack and gears) is lubed by engine oil. I don't know if it's just splash or if there are oil galleries, but it's engine oil. The plungers and their cylinders are lubed by fuel only. The plungers and their cylinders are matched sets fitted to very close tolerances so poor fuel lubrication (or debris in fuel) can really damage these precision parts. But fuel quality has nothing to do with lubrication/wear/failure of the rack or fuel control gear teeth. So all this talk about fuel quality and additives is not related to IP gear/rack tooth failures. Fuel additives may reduce wear in the top parts of the IP and can prevent microbe growth in the tank so they have value. But your problem was not caused by fuel.
Thats what I feel also, but my husband made a good point. He wondered if it was possible for "low sulfur fuel" to cause the plunger/cylinder to stick(not enough lub) thus causing the rack and/or control gear teeth to push harder causing wear on teeth till over time teeth break? However, we both feel if this were the case you should notice a difference in power and performance because it should effect amount and timing of fuel when the plunger/cylinder would hypothectically get stuck. Not sure if any other parts in this valve assembly could be related to direct force on the rack and control gear teeth.
KiotiDave
Advertiser
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Hey all,
We have a diesel shop repair our pumps all the time. The gears on some of them were hardened too hard and made brittle. These are bosch type pumps(copies) and the Bosch parts do fit them. Ask your dealer to check on warranty if you are not too far out...they sometimes make acceptions on parts. Anyway it is worth a try.
Dave G.
KiotiDave
We have a diesel shop repair our pumps all the time. The gears on some of them were hardened too hard and made brittle. These are bosch type pumps(copies) and the Bosch parts do fit them. Ask your dealer to check on warranty if you are not too far out...they sometimes make acceptions on parts. Anyway it is worth a try.
Dave G.
KiotiDave
Thanks for that info Dave. Curious about the typical cost of these repairs (to repair pump only, not removal and reassembly) and also if the repaired pumps seem to be holding up.
Also, I'd be really interested to get your sense on which models/years are most affected by the bad gears. I have a 2008 DK40SE... wondering if a new pump or pump repair is likely to be in my future.
Thanks!
Also, I'd be really interested to get your sense on which models/years are most affected by the bad gears. I have a 2008 DK40SE... wondering if a new pump or pump repair is likely to be in my future.
Thanks!
KiotiDave
Advertiser
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- 357
- Tractor
- Can't remember
Hi,
We have never had to have a do-over on any of our pumps that we get repaired. Unfortunately, I cannot guess at which timeframe or run of pumps were in this category. They seem to pop up every once in a great while. We may have done 8-10 out of 900+ tractors. Pretty low odds.
Dave G.
KiotiDave
We have never had to have a do-over on any of our pumps that we get repaired. Unfortunately, I cannot guess at which timeframe or run of pumps were in this category. They seem to pop up every once in a great while. We may have done 8-10 out of 900+ tractors. Pretty low odds.
Dave G.
KiotiDave
Scott, the portion of your statement underlined... What do you mean they "act" on the pin? I started a post before I realized this post was all about this topic. If you can visit it and look at the picture that looks inside at the IP there is the pin and rack you are referring too... I placed a squared end pick in there and can move it around that pin labeled 4. Nothing is connected to it. Are you saying something should be?
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kioti-owning-operating/255565-ck30-injection-pump.html
Boy this is insane! I have the same problem it sounds like too. We all need to call Kioti, this is not a cheap part from the sounds of it.
Well it's time to bring it to the professionals or dump the dang thing. Glow plugs are ok. Re-examined internals of IP. Everything slides back and forth appropriately. Cracked line at cylinder head nearest the firewall. No luck. I just can't get a good flow. No pressure. Really not much coming out only little spurts now and then.
So guess it's time to replace the IP which may be out of my comfort zone. My question is: I know I am going to pay a $1000 dollars or so, but am I putting in another pump that might go in 225hrs (the same amount of hours on tractor now)?
Wondering if I should just sell this thing as is and put a down payment on something else....(bit frustrated).
Thanks for all your help so far.
So guess it's time to replace the IP which may be out of my comfort zone. My question is: I know I am going to pay a $1000 dollars or so, but am I putting in another pump that might go in 225hrs (the same amount of hours on tractor now)?
Wondering if I should just sell this thing as is and put a down payment on something else....(bit frustrated).
Thanks for all your help so far.
ritcheyvs
Veteran Member
Econ: reviewing the bidding (correct me if I'm wrong)
1. You verified voltage at the glow plugs with ignition switch both in run and cranking positions.
2. With oil fill flange removed you visually confirmed that the IP rack pin moves from a left/aft position to a right/forward position resting against the governor lever when key is switched from off to run/glow.
3. You removed the delivery valves and confirmed the internal springs and other internal parts were intact.
If all this checked out I'm stumped except there must be an internal IP problem of some sort (fuel goes in but not pumped out). It may be time to check compression for a possible non-fuel problem. Parting thoughts: check IP prices at a Bobcat dealer and save the old IP for parts. Good luck
KiotiDave
Advertiser
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- Tractor
- Can't remember
Hi Econ99,
RE" I know I am going to pay a $1000 dollars or so, but am I putting in another pump that might go in 225hrs (the same amount of hours on tractor now)?
Wondering if I should just sell this thing as is and put a down payment on something else....(bit frustrated)."
As I posted above, the injector pump is something you should discuss with your dealer and get him to talk to Kioti about this(if it is the pump), you never know what they may do.
On the other hand we have them completely rebuilt for (Ithink? $390) by our local diesel shop and I have never had to replace one of the rebuilt pumps.
Kioti does look at these on a case by case basis and will at the very least listen to your dealer. It is not normally the fuel that causes this. It is the temperred steel that is brittle in most cases.
Talk to your dealer and get him on board and have him call on your behalf. Kioti is sometimes flexible which a lot of manufacturers are not.
If not...have it rebuilt and don't worry about it.
Dave G.
KiotiDave
RE" I know I am going to pay a $1000 dollars or so, but am I putting in another pump that might go in 225hrs (the same amount of hours on tractor now)?
Wondering if I should just sell this thing as is and put a down payment on something else....(bit frustrated)."
As I posted above, the injector pump is something you should discuss with your dealer and get him to talk to Kioti about this(if it is the pump), you never know what they may do.
On the other hand we have them completely rebuilt for (Ithink? $390) by our local diesel shop and I have never had to replace one of the rebuilt pumps.
Kioti does look at these on a case by case basis and will at the very least listen to your dealer. It is not normally the fuel that causes this. It is the temperred steel that is brittle in most cases.
Talk to your dealer and get him on board and have him call on your behalf. Kioti is sometimes flexible which a lot of manufacturers are not.
If not...have it rebuilt and don't worry about it.
Dave G.
KiotiDave
ritcheyvs
Veteran Member
econ: Please understand that an IP never delivers any substantial "flow" of fuel. This precision "pump" is designed to deliver a very small. precisely measured, amount of fuel to each injector just before the associated piston reaches top dead center on the compression stroke (once every 2 revs). However a healthy IP will produce thousands of PSI (if needed) to push that small amount of fuel through the injector. We're talking drops here. "Little spurts now and then" could well be a description of a healthy IP. But you should see essentially the same behavior from each of the three feeds at the top of the IP or at the injectors. When this thread started, I understood that the fuel feed from the IP was zero, not spurts.
The injectors are designed so they only open after the fuel pressure reaches about 2200 psi. The IP must be able to push out that tiny measured amount under this extreme pressure but it pushes the same tiny amount at zero pressure too.
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Answer to your questions.
1. yes. voltage looked good
2. I did not do it with the key on instead I removed the solenoid when check. Previous I verified that the rod on the solenoid retracts when key on.
3. I did not do this. A previous note suggested that even if the delivery valve were messed up I'd still replace the IP. Do you think I should do this? What's the best way of doing it so I don't have springs all over the place?
As always thank you so much for your help.
ritcheyvs
Veteran Member
Point well taken. Items 2&3 were intended to verify that the IP was truly bad so you don't waste $$ on a part you don't really need. But going back to your post #36 and the attached photo:
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...230395-ck25-will-not-start-4.html#post2927155
If you get a good fuel flow when you crack B-nut #1 and crank the engine but nothing when you crack B-nut #2 and crank the engine then either the SS is jammed or the IP is bad. But I emphasize, proper "flow" from nut #2 should only be a little "spit" every other turn of the engine. If you get an actual flow from nut #2, the associated delivery valve (probably a broken spring) isn't working right.
It's a shame you can't just replace a $2 spring vs buying an entire $800 IP but that seems to be the way it is unless we find a parts source and/or Diesel shop that will work on these things.
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Well I am finally convinced it's the IP. I bought a specialized adapter so I could crack open the middle line at the cylinder head. Nothing.
So. how difficult is it to replace the IP? Is this something better off for the dealer to do? I am ok if I can follow a manual and don't need specialized equipment. Rebuilt a ford 9n back-end and hydraulic pump that way.
Which brings me to the next question where and what shop manual should I get?
Lastly, it was suggested that I look at Bobcat IPs.. what model? Are they 1 for 1 replacement?
Thank you all for you help.
So. how difficult is it to replace the IP? Is this something better off for the dealer to do? I am ok if I can follow a manual and don't need specialized equipment. Rebuilt a ford 9n back-end and hydraulic pump that way.
Which brings me to the next question where and what shop manual should I get?
Lastly, it was suggested that I look at Bobcat IPs.. what model? Are they 1 for 1 replacement?
Thank you all for you help.
ritcheyvs
Veteran Member
econ, I delayed answering hoping someone who had done this job would comment first. You might send a private message to dlw1501, sherrym, or stealth8r, who all have recently replaced their IPs, DIY. I personally have not done this job on a tractor.
To address your questions: This job is not difficult compared to many engine jobs; but if you have little or no experience you may create more problems than you solve. Typical hand tools (including torque wrench) should suffice. Recommend the Kioti paper shop manual for your tractor, which may depend on the specific serial number. Any dealer, including several on this list, can order the manual. I think they cost in the vicinity of $75. Bobcat tractors are made by Daedong so many of the parts are common. I'd recommend you look up the correct IP part number on the Kioti online parts site (OEM Parts) and then contact local Kioti and Bobcat dealers for a price check. I can't tell you the specific Bobcat model but shouldn't be hard for the Bobcat dealer to figure out based on HP and transmission type. Finally, if you have a nearby Diesel service shop, they may be able to test and rebuild (if necessary) your old IP for a fraction of the cost of a new one. Sherrym reported that her local Diesel shop wouldn't work on her IP but KiotiDave reported his local Diesel shop fixes IPs for him routinely (he is a dealer).
Only you can decide if this is a DIY job given your experience and equipment.
SSdoxie
Elite Member
Bobcat equivialnt tractor is CT225 with first 4 digits of serial number A59B. When Kioti changed to CK27, Bobcat left model number the same CT225 but changed the serial number.
