Compact Tractor Horsepower Comparisons

[eaglemrpaul]

I recently had the opportunity to attend John Deere’s winter sales meetings in Sarasota, Florida. At one of the training stations there were 2 tractors, a John Deere and a popular competitive tractor. According to manufacturers printed specs each tractor puts out 45 PTO horsepower. Both were hooked to identical dynamometers. The John Deere 4520, when run at PTO speed, exceeded 45 HP. The competitive tractor only hit the upper 30s. I realize the test was for only 5 minutes, however extending testing time probably would have decreased the results for both. For several years I have taken for granted that printed specs from manufacturers were accurate or at least close. The slap in the face was that there is no required industry standard. The Nebraska Tractor Test for HP are voluntary for every manufacturer selling tractors outside of Nebraska. In the years I have been selling tractors, potential buyers by majority are pricing HP per dollar. Without an outside independent mandatory test who keeps the manufacturers honest.
As Compact Tractor sales continue to increase buyers are being asked to pay for HP numbers which may only be attainable in the mind of the guy producing the brochure.

 

[rback33]

I think a case can be made that this was not a true "test" anyhow. You changed two variables. The should have both been run on the same Dyno. I would like to see the spec sheets on both and cofirm that PTO HP was indeed the number compared. Would not surprise me if it were a 45 PTO Deere and 45 Engine Brand Z.

 

[kubota7800]

I can't believe that the John Deere won at the John Deere sales meeting!

 

[jcmseven]

I will say that I have had the opportunity to see and have tested several tractors prior to my moving, and it is true that JD in most cases underrates its machines. Most times the JD will be at least, if not more than, the advertised PTO HP. I do not know if the other brands are underrated, just that JD seems pretty conservative of its ratings, I suppose not to disappoint customers.

John M

 

[indianaEPH]

I recently had the opportunity to attend John Deere’s winter sales meetings in Sarasota, Florida. At one of the training stations there were 2 tractors, a John Deere and a popular competitive tractor. According to manufacturers printed specs each tractor puts out 45 PTO horsepower. Both were hooked to identical dynamometers. The John Deere 4520, when run at PTO speed, exceeded 45 HP. The competitive tractor only hit the upper 30s. I realize the test was for only 5 minutes, however extending testing time probably would have decreased the results for both. For several years I have taken for granted that printed specs from manufacturers were accurate or at least close. The slap in the face was that there is no required industry standard. The Nebraska Tractor Test for HP are voluntary for every manufacturer selling tractors outside of Nebraska. In the years I have been selling tractors, potential buyers by majority are pricing HP per dollar. Without an outside independent mandatory test who keeps the manufacturers honest.
As Compact Tractor sales continue to increase buyers are being asked to pay for HP numbers which may only be attainable in the mind of the guy producing the brochure.

I think that this is a excellent question. If there is no objective test standards then, I suspect, competitive pressures will push manufactures to streach the truth as to engine and PTO ratings. I even notice some weasle words on brocheres such as "per manufactueres test".

 

[Turbys_1700]

My dad sold tractors and farm implements for over 30 years at a local dealership. Back in the 60's and 70's Allis Chalmers were very well thought of and always submitted tot eh Nebraska tests. In most all tests the Allis units would test out higher than their rated output.

I think that compact manufacturers today sorta skirt the numbers. They know that they are not held accountable for erroneous ratings so they inflate the ratings. I know that where my dad worked they always tested units after repair and in most all instances those old Allis units dynoed over their rated numbers. They always tested the units for extended intervals too. We need an independent testing lab to work on the compact tractor market to give some validity to these inflated numbers.

 

[ovrszd]

I recently had the opportunity to attend John Deere’s winter sales meetings in Sarasota, Florida. At one of the training stations there were 2 tractors, a John Deere and a popular competitive tractor. According to manufacturers printed specs each tractor puts out 45 PTO horsepower. Both were hooked to identical dynamometers. The John Deere 4520, when run at PTO speed, exceeded 45 HP. The competitive tractor only hit the upper 30s. I realize the test was for only 5 minutes, however extending testing time probably would have decreased the results for both. For several years I have taken for granted that printed specs from manufacturers were accurate or at least close. The slap in the face was that there is no required industry standard. The Nebraska Tractor Test for HP are voluntary for every manufacturer selling tractors outside of Nebraska. In the years I have been selling tractors, potential buyers by majority are pricing HP per dollar. Without an outside independent mandatory test who keeps the manufacturers honest.
As Compact Tractor sales continue to increase buyers are being asked to pay for HP numbers which may only be attainable in the mind of the guy producing the brochure.

At first it seemed odd to me that your first post on this website would be a biased report on a specific brand that you happen to sell. So I looked at your profile to learn more about you and found no information. So I decided to email you and discuss your findings and to my surprise you have chosen to not receive emails. Hmmmm, a dealer that doesn't want to stand behind his statement?? We have dealers on this website all the time that enter discussions and offer proveable facts.... Then I paused and realized rather than odd, this is actually amusing and carries absolutely no credability.

 

[ozzie tractor]

i do suspect jd underrate there HP figures, some manufacturers are also known to over rate them. the other thing to watch is how they rated them and what procedure they used. back to JD (sorry for comparing to bota but its a product i know) i was on nebraska test the other day looking at the HP to ground of JD after i read a post on this site and was impressed. so i compared the M120 bota to a 120 hp jd. the bota got hammered. except it used a stack less fuel. so i found a jd that used about the same fuel as the bota and guess what, it was ratted about 100hp but put exactly the same HP to the ground. when the jd was compared to kubota it seemed they lost very little in the drive line (litteraly none, or so it would seem). but if they have underrated the hp well it all makes sense dosent it.

 

[eaglemrpaul]

Ovrscd

I have no biased agenda. I am not colorblind. I do sell JD equipment however I am a customer of product far more than I am a sales rep. I am a customer ever time I buy gasoline. I am a customer every time I go to the grocery store. Anytime I buy anthing I am a customer. I would hope and trust that what is represented in advertising and on product labels or brocures is accurate. I know something about tractors because that’s my job. I understand the value of horsepower. I farmed farm several years. I also am a pilot. Try taking off from a short runway on a hot day. Horsepower has value. It is true that most people may never take advantage or need the HP they’re buying. Usually if you run short it’s not because you wish you had 10 more horse, it’s because you wish you had 50 more. As a consumer, I just want to know that I get what I pay for. As a sales rep I want to know that I represent my product accurately. . . I have changed my options which now include my email address.

 

[N80]

I think we'd all like to see accuracy, but no offense intended, when we hear that a selected brand x model didn't stack up to a selected JD model at a JD sales meeting, you can understand that we might not expect a great deal of accuracy in _that_ test either. Just good healthy skepticism. Keeps us all honest. Plus, there was another account about a test of JD vs Kubota cabs where JD had pretty much stacked the cards in their favor. So skepticism can be a valuable asset in this market.

I'd love to know how my tractor's hp rating was arrived at and love to be able to confirm it. Chances of either are slim, I suspect.

I have heard of automakers underrating the hp in a lower line car compared to a higher line model with the same engine. Rumor has it that they both have the same hp but the lower model is underrated to ake the higher model seem like a better buy. True? I have no idea. Possible? Sure. Possible in the tractor biz? Probably.

 

[scott_vt]

Mornin eaglemrpaul,
First welcome to TBN ! A lot of great people on here with a wealth of info.

Sorry if your off to a rocky start, but honestly both Ovrszd and N80 have very good points. By making your first post pro JD, and anti brand X, being a JD dealer you have to admit that your gonna catch some flak Your statements may be true, but used in a first post context makes some of us a bit apprehensive !

In ant event may the rest of your time on TBN be enjoyable !

 

[gamble77]

I won't be affraid to say that the tractor they were testing the JD against was a Kubota L5030. When I was at that station the Kubota put out 35pto hp, the JD over 45pto hp.

NOW...I know that this might seem a little fishy from the outside however, the two dyno's they were using were identical and each session they moved each tractor to the other dyno to be fair. I heard the Kubota never pulled over 38pto hp the whole 3-days...including very cool days when it should have been strong.

Take that for what you will, it was a test that was made to make the Deere look good, and it did that very well. I believe if you look at the Nebraska test and the unit's Kubota has submitted against comparable Deere's you will see the Deere's usually hold to their numbers better. Again, not trying to start a brand war here these are just plain facts...Kubota makes a good machine, if they didn't they wouldn't be where they are today.

 

[rback33]

Gamble,
Thanks for the added information. I hate to pick on the new guy over there, so you added info helps validate what he is saying. I Dave from Dave's tractor is on vacation and cannot respond, but he has said repeatedly that Mahindra underrates HP according to Dynos he has run. Now I know, he is a Mahindra dealer, but I think we all know him as a fair and honest guy by now. I strikes me as odd that Kubota would not do this as well. We certainly need more data to begin to call this race, but it does make me raise my eyebrows just a bit.

 

[donais]

i think all the brands should fly me in and i will bring a can of diesel and i can watch the dyno tests, to insure they are equal and fair, better yet they should all pitch in and buy me a dyno, send a test tractor and ill do it here.. ill need an assistant also. jon

 

[Champy]

i think all the brands should fly me in and i will bring a can of diesel and i can watch the dyno tests, to insure they are equal and fair, better yet they should all pitch in and buy me a dyno, send a test tractor and ill do it here.. ill need an assistant also. jon

Isn't this what the Nebraska Testing Facility does - provides an independent testing and analysis of the tractor specs? If so, the the issue resides with manufacturers that do not participate in this testing to provide us (consumers) with reliable, independent, and certified performance ratings. Without a standard reference system, the markeplace claims and manufacturer advertisments are promoting nothing more than the doctrine of caveat emptor (buyer beware).

Consumers are getting smarter, more capable, and more demanding. Reputable OEMs (JD; Kubota; NH; etc..) cannot survive over the long haul by inflating their rating numbers - hence many may be inclined to underrate for "performance margin of safety".

 

[dgl24087]

From the University of Nebraska tractor test site:

The University of Nebraska Tractor Test Laboratory is the officially designated tractor testing station for the United States and tests tractors according to the codes of the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). Twenty-eight countries participate in the tractor test codes, with active tractor test stations in approximately 25 of those countries. The OECD codes require that tractors be tested in the country of manufacture. Reciprocity agreements with the codes require that once an OECD test report is officially approved, it must be accepted by all participating countries.

So, by my interpretation, only tractors manufactured in the U.S. are subject to being tested at the U. of Neb., and the other member countries test based on OECD standards. Compacts generally are not subject to these tests as they are not considered true agricultural use machines. I think the cutoff point is 40 HP.

 

[donais]

i just wanted a free dyno and play with alot of free tractors....i also want to retire but they say i have to earn my pension first.. on a serious side is there a url for the u of n tests???

 

[rback33]

i just wanted a free dyno and play with alot of free tractors....i also want to retire but they say i have to earn my pension first.. on a serious side is there a url for the u of n tests???

I think so... seems I have been there before.. I'll look for it...

NE Tractor Test Laboratory

 

[N80]

The problem I have with tests like the one described by the OP is that such demonstrations (they aren't really tests) are intended to imply that such hp differences extend across the model lines of each manufacturer. In other words, JD model x has more hp than Kubota model z even though they have the same published hp specs and this is supposed to mean that all JDs (or whatever) have more accurate specs than all Kubotas (or whatever).

The demo might prove that model x has more hp than model z but it does not mean that this data can be applied to all models in either company and I would suspect that JD made its model selection very carefully. And if it was indeed the Kubota 5030, well, it has been discontinued for the 5040 I believe. Why do the test against a model that is going out and not the model coming in? I would guess, but can't prove in any way, that Kubota could probably pick a JD model that is a little overspeced and pit it against one of their similar hp models that is a little underspeced and show the same thing. That's a total guess of course. It could be true that all JD's are underspeced and all Kubotas are overspeced. I don't know. But if JD, or anyone else, is doing this sort of thing for publicity, and their machines are indeed underspeced, why don't they spec them accurately and win the race where it really counts...in the brochures, spec sheets and marketing?

I would be dissapointed to find that my tractor was overspeced. Especially if it wasn't doing something that 'x' number of hp should be able to do.

 

[rback33]

The problem I have with tests like the one described by the OP is that such demonstrations (they aren't really tests) are intended to imply that such hp differences extend across the model lines of each manufacturer. In other words, JD model x has more hp than Kubota model z even though they have the same published hp specs and this is supposed to mean that all JDs (or whatever) have more accurate specs than all Kubotas (or whatever).

The demo might prove that model x has more hp than model z but it does not mean that this data can be applied to all models in either company and I would suspect that JD made its model selection very carefully. And if it was indeed the Kubota 5030, well, it has been discontinued for the 5040 I believe. Why do the test against a model that is going out and not the model coming in? I would guess, but can't prove in any way, that Kubota could probably pick a JD model that is a little overspeced and pit it against one of their similar hp models that is a little underspeced and show the same thing. That's a total guess of course. It could be true that all JD's are underspeced and all Kubotas are overspeced. I don't know. But if JD, or anyone else, is doing this sort of thing for publicity, and their machines are indeed underspeced, why don't they spec them accurately and win the race where it really counts...in the brochures, spec sheets and marketing?

I would be dissapointed to find that my tractor was overspeced. Especially if it wasn't doing something that 'x' number of hp should be able to do.

Are you implying dishonest marketing here? Blasphemy There is no way that JD would do that test without knowing EXACTLY what it would do, and I would bet money those two were hand-picked for a purpose.