Comparing Major Brand Plasma systems to low cost imports

[jimcolt]

All good comments. I plan to start a series of threads (generic...no brands!) that will help people understand plasma cutting technology.....from the history of the process, how it works, as well as ongoing developments in technology that make today's air plasma torches easy and extremely low cost in regards to metal cutting.

A few tidbits:

- There are air plasma cutters available from the size of a two slice toaster that will run on 120 volt power, a small amount of compressed air...and can sever 1/2" steel......to larger air plasma systems with liquid cooled torches for up to 200 amp cutting.

- Plasma systems range from a 12 amp system for hand cutting of sheetmetal....up to 1000 amp plasma torches that can cut over 6" thick stainless and aluminum.

-Most of the technology developments with plasma cutting are from the U.S.....with the process being invented by Union Carbide Corp (S. Carolina) in 1957.....and major process improvements continuously added by two companies in New Hampshire and their affiliation with the Dartmouth College Thayer School of engineering.

Jim Colt

 

[5030]

I'm going to jump in here and say....

I respect Jim Colt's expertise in not only plasma cutting machines but CNC plasma cutting and I follows his threads on many forums, Welding Web, the Hobart Forum and here....and elsewhere

I can say it and that is I bought my second plasma a Hypertherm HYP083275 65 amp with CPC port to use with my Plasma Cam CNC cutting table.

Additionally....

Hobart offers a reasonably priced plasma units, some with on board compressors, actually made here in American and not brought to you via overseas container and when you take the cover off, the labels on the inside aren't written in some cryptic language most of us can't understand anyway....or want to.

I've had one of the reasonably priced Hobart plasma units for 8 years now and it's been trouble free. I just sold it and received better than half of my original price, selling to an individual. Will the import plasma units last 8 years and if they do, will they be worth anything in 8 years? Think about that.

I went with Hyper Therm primarily because of the integration of the unit with the Plasma Cam and the CNC controllers as well as the inch per minute capability and the narrow kerf of the 'fine cut' consumables..... and it didn't come in a container and the profit from the machine stays here and supports American workers, unlike the 'imported'; units where the profit goes offshore, something to think about because most all of you on this site are employed by domestic companies and are able to buy your tractors and stuff because you are employed. It's certainly more conducive to our economy and keeps you working, when you support the very companies that employ you in the first place. The Chinese aren't going to employ you, and if they did, certainly not at a wage that would keep you buying hard goods or eating maet..... maybe rice.....

They aren't cheap, (American made tools of all description) but then, quality tools never are.

Finally......

Unlike the Hobart Forum and to a lesser extent, Welding Web, this site is a totally for profit driven venture. The forum owner is about making money (as evidenced) by the number of paid advertisers and pop up ads.

I've been on this site as a poster for a long time, longer than most, so I've watched the transgression of this site from one of information to one of profit motivation.

It's blatantly evident (that this site) is a for profit venture when Jim Colt starts a thread about the nuts and bolts of plasma cutters without mentioning any brand names and the 'Paid Advertisers' jump right in with disparaging comments, comments made because they can, because they pay a fee to say what they want to, whether or not their comments are based in fiction or fact.

My suggestion to anyone reading this thread is to visit a real non-partisan, non prejudiced forum like the Hobart Forum, where there is NO PAID ADVERTISING, other than Hobart themselves because they absorb the cost of running it (forum) unlike here. On the Hobart forum you can discuss any manufacturer without fear of retribution from the forum owner or the PAID ADVERTISERS because there aren't any.....duh...:laughing: Or visit Welding Web, where real hobbyists and professional metalworkers discuss equipment and practices, again without interjections from PAID ADVERTISERS.

Keep up the good work Jim. I respect your opinions and insight based on fact, not conjecture.

 

[dynasim]

I have a different take than 5030.

Jim Colt is advertising. Saying that he doesn't mention his company's name is not really relevant, as everyone who reads more than 2 of his responses knows exactly who he representing, and the point he is trying to make(not so successfully in my view).

Jim is presenting his information as an advertiser would present. I actually have no problem with Jim presenting his information in the way that he does, and have no doubt the company he represents makes good stuff. I have suggested people investigate one specific model from his company several times.

However, if Jim's company wants to advertise on this forum, they ought to just pay the fee. It is unreasonable to expect a for-profit company to provide a vehicle to advertise another for profit company for free. That is un-American.

What he has done(and I don't understand why) is pushed discord onto a great forum that till recently has been very civil. Recently, there have been a number of people who followed this path. Had he followed the path of being helpful, he, and his company, would have gained and kept the respect they deserve. I have levelled the same advice at Mark as well.

The sad thing, from my perspective, is that Jim's company will go the route of GM if it chooses to not compete with these machines. In a couple of years, they will be as good as his company's, and at 1/3-1/2 the price.

I would not have purchased a Hypertherm machine with the capability of the machine I have because it would not have been economical(4X the price).

Ironicly, however, but for the rantings of a few people on hobart and welding web, I would have purchased hypertherm's lower capacity machine. Their ranting prevented me from asking questions, and therefore didn't know how lightweight, flexible hypertherm 30 compared to the heavier machines.

So, my suggestion is that if Jim want's to advertise, pay the fee. If he wants to inform and answer questions, don't. There really isn't a middle ground. But I beg of you, keep tractorbynet civil.

Chris

 

[5030]

I have a different take than 5030.

Jim Colt is advertising. Saying that he doesn't mention his company's name is not really relevant, as everyone who reads more than 2 of his responses knows exactly who he representing, and the point he is trying to make(not so successfully in my view).

Jim is presenting his information as an advertiser would present. I actually have no problem with Jim presenting his information in the way that he does, and have no doubt the company he represents makes good stuff. I have suggested people investigate one specific model from his company several times.

However, if Jim's company wants to advertise on this forum, they ought to just pay the fee. It is unreasonable to expect a for-profit company to provide a vehicle to advertise another for profit company for free. That is un-American.

What he has done(and I don't understand why) is pushed discord onto a great forum that till recently has been very civil. Recently, there have been a number of people who followed this path. Had he followed the path of being helpful, he, and his company, would have gained and kept the respect they deserve. I have levelled the same advice at Mark as well.

The sad thing, from my perspective, is that Jim's company will go the route of GM if it chooses to not compete with these machines. In a couple of years, they will be as good as his company's, and at 1/3-1/2 the price.

I would not have purchased a Hypertherm machine with the capability of the machine I have because it would not have been economical(4X the price).

Ironicly, however, but for the rantings of a few people on hobart and welding web, I would have purchased hypertherm's lower capacity machine. Their ranting prevented me from asking questions, and therefore didn't know how lightweight, flexible hypertherm 30 compared to the heavier machines.

So, my suggestion is that if Jim want's to advertise, pay the fee. If he wants to inform and answer questions, don't. There really isn't a middle ground. But I beg of you, keep tractorbynet civil.

Chris

Chris....

Maybe you could enlighten me with the lines in Jim's post (original post) that smacks of or insinuates advertising? I don't see that or read that at all.

Secondly, from what I've been led to understand is that Mr. Colt is not is sales for Hyper Therm but works in manufacturing so he has no monetary motive to promote his company's product other than he's proud of what they manufacture, as it should be.

Thirdly, reading his post, it appears to me as more of a dissertation about the pitfalls of plasma units in general in respect to pricing and orign as well as technology and not as a bashing of imported units.... I'm the one bashing those, not him........

I too am a manufacturer of products for the consumer here, in this country and I compete with imported products, daily. I've found over the years I've been in business that if you produce a quality product that you are proud of, your customers will come. Jim is rightfully proud of his company's products and he's very well versed in the 'nuts and bolts' aspect of plasma technology. I see nothing adverserial or prejudiced in his post, however, I easly sense the animosity from the 'paid advertisers' in their comments.

I don't give a hoot what you or anyone else buys, other than keep in mind when you do buy import hard goods, you do NOTHING to promote your continuing employment in a domestic theater and you do little in keeping the profits here, where they belong.

Finally, keep in mind that when the domestic manufacturers are gone, the imported hard goods manufacturers will dictate your choices. I've seen that happen in machine tools, where the domestic manufacturers are all gone and your only choice is imported and the sub choices are now dictated by the offshore manufacturer.

These 'paid advertisers' that offer the import machines, only derive a profit from the markup of those goods, probably in the area of 45%. Most likely nothing more than a desk, phone, FAX and a couple computers, they do little if anything to promote local economy or provide good paying manufacturing jobs, because all the manufacturing is done offshore. They are nothing more than distributors of some company's manufactured hard goods, imported no less. Fat Cats with a phone and line of crap.... Nothing more.:confused2:

To the Longevity and Everlast importers, I say.... 'Show us your domestic Research and development facilities or your domestic manufacturing facilities or your hourly employees working in your facility'. You can't because you don't have any................

 

[jimcolt]

Hypertherm's marketing may very well want to advertise on this site...however the sales staff from the site would have to work that out.....as I have nothing to do with advertising. I do however know a fair amount about plasma cutting.....have used most brands and models from the smallest to the largest. Obviously after working for one company for 35 + years I tend to lean towards those models.

We have had product releases in the past that I did not like....for various reasons.....and you would never hear a single word from me promoting a model that I would not buy myself. The systems that were not up to par did not remain in the product line for long......and that is the choice of the customers.

My posting on this and dozens of sites is my choice, not my company's choice. I happen to own 4 or 5 (I think there's a 5th one in my shop!) air plasma systems as well as two cnc machines in my home shop....which is operated as a small business and a hobby. I don't sell plasma systems.....I work for a company that manufactures them.....and all are sold through distributors. Many ask me if I can get the,m a discount...or sell a unit direct....and my answer is always no.

My job title at Hypertherm is Applications Technology Manager. It is my responsibility to help our customers get the most out of their existing plasma cutters. Many of our customers also have T-D, Esab, Miller, Lincoln and yes....even some of the imports......as long as the customer has one of ours, I'll help with all of their cutting needs. My other responsibilities include writing generic (non advertising) trade magazine articles.....I have published over 50 to date, all on plasma cutting subjects. I also am a frequent speaker (non commercial talks) at trade shows and conventions, again, all on the subject of plasma cutting....these talks are done for the SME (society of manufacturing engineers), AWS (Amerucan Welding Society), FMA (Fabricators and Manufacturers Association), I also participate in webinars....some sponsored by my company, as well as some for various trade magazines and organizations....all about plasma. All of this is done for no fees and with no expectations that the magazines and organizations will demand advertising money, rather, they publish my articles because it helps to educate the public on the subject of plasma cutting.

If my posting is considered as advertising...I suspect that the administrators will delete them....and I will get banned. If that is the case...so be it!

In the mean time I will continue to make posts in response to plasma related questions, and I will post some new threads discussing plasma cutting technology.

In regards to my company building a low cost unit, our corporation has standards that involve manufacturing products that are as green as possible, that meet our minimum safety standards....that meet CSA , CE and other regional electrical specs.....and we also have strict specifications regarding MTBF (mean time before failure, a reliability spec.) and consumable life. At this time we can not build a unit at the same price range of the low cost import that meets all of those specs. And....no one else can either, including the imports!

Best regards, Jim

I have a different take than 5030.

Jim Colt is advertising. Saying that he doesn't mention his company's name is not really relevant, as everyone who reads more than 2 of his responses knows exactly who he representing, and the point he is trying to make(not so successfully in my view).

Jim is presenting his information as an advertiser would present. I actually have no problem with Jim presenting his information in the way that he does, and have no doubt the company he represents makes good stuff. I have suggested people investigate one specific model from his company several times.

However, if Jim's company wants to advertise on this forum, they ought to just pay the fee. It is unreasonable to expect a for-profit company to provide a vehicle to advertise another for profit company for free. That is un-American.

What he has done(and I don't understand why) is pushed discord onto a great forum that till recently has been very civil. Recently, there have been a number of people who followed this path. Had he followed the path of being helpful, he, and his company, would have gained and kept the respect they deserve. I have levelled the same advice at Mark as well.

The sad thing, from my perspective, is that Jim's company will go the route of GM if it chooses to not compete with these machines. In a couple of years, they will be as good as his company's, and at 1/3-1/2 the price.

I would not have purchased a Hypertherm machine with the capability of the machine I have because it would not have been economical(4X the price).

Ironicly, however, but for the rantings of a few people on hobart and welding web, I would have purchased hypertherm's lower capacity machine. Their ranting prevented me from asking questions, and therefore didn't know how lightweight, flexible hypertherm 30 compared to the heavier machines.

So, my suggestion is that if Jim want's to advertise, pay the fee. If he wants to inform and answer questions, don't. There really isn't a middle ground. But I beg of you, keep tractorbynet civil.

Chris

 

[greasemonkeyok]

For perspective from the peanut gallery, I have used a Thermal Dynamics 80XL for many years. Purchased it new and the cost per inch of cut might be considered horrendous - because I am a hobby user with limited needs. But it has been a reliable machine and still has value to me.

The only problem was the ground cable split when a 1/2" x 6" x 4' angle iron fell on it. They need a control wire to the operator's brain to avoid stupid mistakes. :laughing:

But when I purchased the Thermal Dynamics, the reputations of the imports were not particularly good. So I took the safe road.

It appears that may no longer be the case. Guess that is the gist of this thread. If I had to buy one today, I would consider purchasing one of the imports, and refer to this thread as a starting point for my analysis. Ignoring the ad hominem, this is a good thread.

 

[jimcolt]

T-D has designed and built some good plasma systems ove the years. I have cut the work ground on more than one occasion....drop cutting a heavy piece.

The gist of this thread is to help people understand that there is a difference in performance system to system. Each plasma model has its own capabilities....the low price ones have a low price, th high price ones have features and performance that you get from paying a higher price. If the low priced ones do what you need...then they are a good choice......just don't expect $600 to buy the same performance that $1800 does.

Jim

For perspective from the peanut gallery, I have used a Thermal Dynamics 80XL for many years. Purchased it new and the cost per inch of cut might be considered horrendous - because I am a hobby user with limited needs. But it has been a reliable machine and still has value to me.




The only problem was the ground cable split when a 1/2" x 6" x 4' angle iron fell on it. They need a control wire to the operator's brain to avoid stupid mistakes. :laughing:

But when I purchased the Thermal Dynamics, the reputations of the imports were not particularly good. So I took the safe road.

It appears that may no longer be the case. Guess that is the gist of this thread. If I had to buy one today, I would consider purchasing one of the imports, and refer to this thread as a starting point for my analysis. Ignoring the ad hominem, this is a good thread.

 

[FredH]

I am wondering " WHY " if 5030 and Jim colt seem to Hate the import brands so much , then " Why " even be a member on this board if these " Import " brands own the show here ?

You know , if I hate seafood , I sure don't go to Red Lobster !!!

I find nothing " informative " in posts like this . If I don't own one , I don't comment about product "x" be it whatever brand .


Fred H.

 

[hodge]

I am wondering " WHY " if 5030 and Jim colt seem to Hate the import brands so much , then " Why " even be a member on this board if these " Import " brands own the show here ?

You know , if I hate seafood , I sure don't go to Red Lobster !!!

I find nothing " informative " in posts like this . If I don't own one , I don't comment about product "x" be it whatever brand .


Fred H.

Having followed this thread, I have not seen the word "hate" used. Putting it in a nutshell, they are saying that you get what you pay for. And, if you believe in what you do (in this case, Jim represents a company who is proud of their product and accomplishments), then you stand up for it. It is clear from this post on this forum, and others, that both parties defend their products strongly. Personally, I don't see any reason for Jim or 5030 to go away- they are standing up for what they believe in, which is the right of every person on this forum.
I have found this informative- behavior says a lot about character. I believe that Jim Colt is an expert in his field, he is a premier voice of experience, and his intentions are fair. I have a Miller- I have no dog in this fight between the two. I am glad that I bought it, though. I have more confidence in the American companies.
I had seriously entertained buying an Everlast, but if there is smoke and mirrors going on, I'm glad that I didn't. Any company that I am going to give that kind of money to, whether it is $2000 for a premier unit or half that for a Chinese cutter, had better be above board and transparent, not playing games and dodging responsibility.

 

[jake98]

I had seriously entertained buying an Everlast, but if there is smoke and mirrors going on, I'm glad that I didn't.

What are you referring to here??