COP 357 4 shot derenger

[MF1652]

neither especially high crime nor paranoia.

does having a spare tire in your car make you paranoid about getting a flat tire or are you simply prepaired?

I'd rather be prepaired vs sticking my head in the sand and be ignorant of the POSSIBILITY of danger, when it's so easy to be prepaired. besides. guns are a good investment. I don't own a single gun that is worth less than when i bought it.. ie.. used value is more than new due to either inflation or collectability.

any where you find humans.. you get human behavior. and with the economy like it is.. some people do bad things more often than when times are good.

seat belts don't constitute paranoia.. neither do flotation devices in a boat.. or self defense guns at a home. all are emergency tools to help you survive in a specific emergency.

soundguy

Excellent response. Could not have explained it better myself.

 

[brin]

and I see no problem talking about lawfull self defense plans.

kinda like having a safety metting at work and identifying the fire exits and knowing where you meet up at... it's all planning for safety... my safety anyway.. not the robber. he's on his own and responsible for whatever he gets himself into while breaking the law ...

soundguy

Soundguy....I agree completely with you...all I was getting at , in this day and age our privacy is all but gone so if the worse happened and some home owner had to shoot someone breaking into their house and the burglars defense atty. subpoenaed all of the homeowners internet records and they found a post where someone was posting about their intent to shoot an intruder..I could see them trying to say it was premeditated and the persons plan all along was to kill an intruder regardless of their perceived threat to their life..

I sure do agree we need to be prepared and not think it can't happen to us and I agree with the analogy of a spare tire....etc..same thing..be prepared and ready.:thumbsup:

 

[Bird]

No offense, but to an IPSC or IDPA competitor, of even C or D Class these times allowed for completion of these courses of fire are laughable.

James, I'ver heard anyone say this was a good competition course. It's the minimum required of police officers. And they're not competing against anyone. Now they do have an annual competition in which the only invited participants are the top 40 officers who scored 100. Even a score of 100 doesn't guarantee an officer will be invited to the competition if the numbers in the X are not high enough to place him or her in the top 40.

My only point was the difference in what's required of the officers vs. what's required of individuals to qualify for a CHL. And certainly the police course is easy if you're shooting the city issued Sig P226 with magazines that hold 15 rounds. It's a little more difficult for those shooting revolvers because of the extra reloading required, or even for folks such as myself, shooting with a gun with magazines that hold only 13 rounds, but still not what I, or most other folks, would call a difficult course.

As for practice, I suppose most working folks might have a problem finding time to practice as you said. And they might have a problem with affording the ammo and/or range fees. In fact, I suspect that most law enforcement officers (city, state, or national) do very little practice outside the required annual or semi-annual qualification. 45-46 years ago, I knew an FBI agent who gave me several boxes of .38 ammo. He said the FBI gave them one box of 50 a month to practice with and he seldom did any practicing, so the ammo accumulated.

I have never considered myself to be a "good" shot, but I did receive 4 marksmanship awards; generally referred to in the department as "shooting bars" to go on the uniform.:laughing: In those days, you only had to score 90 or better during 3 consecutive 6 month qualifications. So if you shot 89, it would be another year and a half before you could possibly qualify for a shooting bar.

I have more time now, and perhaps am more financially able to practice, and I enjoy it, so I go shoot 50 or 100 rounds once or twice a month. I'll never be a competition shooter, nor do I have any desire to be.

 

[k0ua]

I have more time now, and perhaps am more financially able to practice, and I enjoy it, so I go shoot 50 or 100 rounds once or twice a month. I'll never be a competition shooter, nor do I have any desire to be.

Understand, Yes most folks will never compete, for a multitude of reasons. Yes the cost is a prime factor. Of course a good reloading press helps a lot, but still the components add up too. My point is that a lot of police officers cannot shoot worth beans, because their departments don't force them to practice or compete, and the standards are too lax in my opinion. The good news is a lot of IPSC and IDPA competitors ARE cops, on their own time and their own dime, because they want to get good, and have a better chance of living. Yes I have heard the stories about the practice ammo piling up, why on earth if someone was going to furnish you free ammo, you would not burn it all up in practice is beyond me. When we had a nice place to shoot, my wife and I would go through bricks of 22 ammo. in an afternoon. Only problem was, she always wanted her own brick:laughing:.

James K0UA

 

[Bird]

I have no idea how many people do their own reloading, nor do I know what the cost difference would be. I do know that the range personnel in Dallas used to reload the ammo to be used in training, but they quit that many years ago and went to all new ammo. And when I took the FBI pistol course at Quantico in 1986, the FBI Academy had also gone to all new factory ammo.

My point is that a lot of police officers cannot shoot worth beans

I don't disagree, but of course there's a big difference in shooting targets vs. shooting a person. I went through recruit training in the police academy in a class of 29 recruits. On the days we went to the firing range, 3 or 4 of us used to have a little bet; lowest score bought the drinks for the others when we finished for the day. We were always lined up alphabetically and the fellow on my left coudn't hit the broad side of a barn, so he never participated in our little bet; knew he'd lose. But in our career, he's the only one who ever had to shoot a person. Now his shots might not have been placed the best, but he stood there while the bad guy shot at him, and missed, and that officer hit the bad guy with all 5 rounds, at least some of which were fatal.

And while a lot of officers may not be what could be called "good" shots, at least in Dallas (and I think most other places), if they can't shoot a qualifying score, they can't carry a gun. They can practice on their own time with their own ammo all they want, but the targets are free.:laughing:

 

[k0ua]

I don't disagree, but of course there's a big difference in shooting targets vs. shooting a person.

Rgr that, I have never shot anyone, and hope to never do so. ( I was a deputy sheriff for a while, I got lucky.) I have shot a lot of paper and steel. The reloading game used to be about a 4 to 1 ratio, in dollars spent on components vs. dollar spent of factory ammo. But lately I think that the ratio is a lot tighter, more like 2 or 3 to 1. I went in to buy a reloading machine at a gun store a long time ago, and the guy asked me why I wanted to start reloading, and I said to "save money sir", He replied, "well son, you arent' going to save ANY money, you are just going to shoot more!" he was right.
James K0UA

 

[Soundguy]

part of that plan has to be metal preperation. could you shoot someone to defend your life or the life of another.

that's not a decision you need to stop and think about while a drug crazed murderer is breaking down your bedroom door with a crowbar.. you must have already made that decision and be ready to defend yourself till the threat is mitigated and or external help arrives in the form of lawn enforcement. I think premeditated 'self defense' is a bit of a stretch.. at least here in florida it would be. maybee some states where the subjects have to rights.. well.. it might be very different.. unfortunately..

soundguy

Soundguy....I agree completely with you...all I was getting at , in this day and age our privacy is all but gone so if the worse happened and some home owner had to shoot someone breaking into their house and the burglars defense atty. subpoenaed all of the homeowners internet records and they found a post where someone was posting about their intent to shoot an intruder..I could see them trying to say it was premeditated and the persons plan all along was to kill an intruder regardless of their perceived threat to their life..

I sure do agree we need to be prepared and not think it can't happen to us and I agree with the analogy of a spare tire....etc..same thing..be prepared and ready.:thumbsup:

 

[Bird]

I have shot a lot of paper and steel.

I'm curious. What kind of steel? Many years ago, for a short time, we trained a bit on what they called "instinct shooting" at the time. The silhouette target was much smaller than the paper targets and was a thick convex steel to which grease was applied with a paint roller. The idea was to triple tap; 2 in the chest, 1 in the head without aiming; just rapid point shooting.

Of course, I just shoot paper now and use the TQ-15DPD targets. In fact, I just bought another hundred of them. They are what the police department uses, but anyone can buy them. I can practice on the police range at no cost except my ammo; they provide the targets, but it's an outdoor range and 36.9 miles of heavy traffic, so I most frequently use an indoor range I like that's only 16.6 miles, and only costs me $6.50. The light is better outdoors though.

 

[k0ua]

http://mgmtargets.com/tstore/images/mgmtargets/popper_pepper.gif

The pepper popper is the most common reactive target used in IPSC but also the 8 inch standard plate. and less common the so called "A" zone plate, which is the "A" zone size from a standard IPSC paper target. Now before novices go wanging away at steel targets, some caveats. Never shoot at steel targets that are less than 10 yards away, never shoot at steel targets that have become concave from hits. Never shoot at steel that is not placed "square" to the shooter, in other words, dont shoot at a metalic target at an angle to where the shooter is standing. If these rules are followed, it is perfectly safe, I have seen literaley 100's of thousands of rounds fired at steel safely. The rounds "melt" or disintegrate on the face of the ballistic steel and the fragments dissipate in a circle at 90 degrees to the face of the steel. Occasionally a fragment will come back at a low velocity, That is why all participants and bystanders wear adequate eye protection.
James K0UA

 

[k0ua]

Bird, while I have fired thousands of rounds indoors, and trained many people on shooting lanes indoors, I much prefer to shoot outdoors, mainly due to the air quality outdoors is so much better. Even the good indoors ranges with air movement downrange, you still eat your share of smoke. It is just better outdoors, and the sound is less outdoors too. We always used the old B-27 paper target indoors, and that is what they had us qualify on for the CCW course here in Missouri. I have heard it said that the B-27 was designed by the FBI in the 30's from a silhoutte of John Dillenger. But I dont know it that is really true.