CT225 will crank, won稚 start

[GJohnson]

Hi everyone! New to site. I have been looking at posts for a long time. I have way too many tractors not to!

Here is what I have going on and hope for help. CT225 turns over fine, but will not start.
1. Starting from the beginning, the only things that will keep it from CRANKING would be the switches on both PTOs, the seat switch and the treadle switch being at rest (centered). Is that correct?
2. I have completely drained the fuel, checking in sequence every hose and connection to the injectors. I will go through it...Initially I thought my issue was just starvation because the flow from the tank was slowed to a trickle. The cap is not venting, so for now it is loosened. After connecting the fuel line back to the filter, removed filter and filled half+ of bowl with same fresh fuel. I then got all of the air out of the bowl and even checked the vent fuel line back to tank, all good. Once I knew I had fuel past the filter, I took the fuel line loose from lift pump to be sure flow was good. Put that line back on the lift pump and removed the fuel line going to the IP bolster nut from lift pump. Again, flow is good. All injector lines were removed, checked and replaced, return lines all replaced. All injectors were taken out, visually inspected, and replaced. Fuel was drawn up to each injector and nuts closed. I would think it would crank AND start now, but it will not. I checked the usual stuff prior to going through the system such as electric fuel shut off, fuel rail springs toward the hole of same shut off and can be moved with my finger easily. As stated, I have fuel getting to injectors, not sure if timing is off or pressure needed at injectors. I get a faint amount of white smoke from exhaust when cranking. I checked all three glow plug connections with ohmmeter and have juice. They are untested, but it is 85 degrees here. I am close to my mechanical limits on this issue. What am I missing or not doing?

I should say, I just bought this and do not have history on the tractor. However, it has 600 hours on it and I’ve tested every function, loader, three point, etc.. and all work fine.

 

[MESSMAKER]

I would double ck the safety switches. Debris an get on the contact under the treadle. The hydro selector might not be fully seated in position. I had a 225 and it did the same thing probably a dozen times and it was always a switch somewhere.

 

[GJohnson]

Messmaker, would it crank over if that switch was affected? Like I said, it will turn over all day...just not start. Am I correct in my first question? Or is there something more to safety switches? I appreciate your input, a lot.

 

[milkman636]

I don't have the exact same model, but my first suspect would be the fuel shutoff solenoid. It has to snap to release the fuel rack on the injection pump in order for it to deliver fuel to the injectors. There are probably two coils on that relay, a momentary coil that snaps loudly to open it when the key initially turns on, and another maintained coil with lower current draw that stays energized while in the key is in the run position to keep the solenoid open. I had that relay go bad on my CT335 and it would just crank continuously with not even a sputter. (It's the only mechanical failure I've experienced so far in almost 10 years of ownership) If both of those coils are doing their job on the solenoid, the rack on your injection pump should be free to move with your throttle and your pump should be able to deliver pressurized fuel to the injectors. So my recommendation is to take a second look at that fuel shutoff solenoid to make sure its actually opening and staying open. It was a stock part at my dealer and literally only takes a couple minutes to change.

 

[GJohnson]

Milkman, I really wish it were that simple. That is really good advise but I know with a great deal of certainty that isn’t the issue. I have had the shut off out of the tractor a minimum of 4 times over the last couple of days. I am now leaning toward a weak IP. Like I said, I have fuel up to the injectors, but it doesn’t seem like much pressure. Since I don’t have any way to test this, I compared it to a kubota 2370 output at injector. The CT225 didn’t have as much fuel coming out. Both were set to idle and cranked over. Any and all suggestions are appreciated. Thanks a bunch!

 

[milkman636]

When the solenoid releases the rack, there should be an idle spring on the opposite side of the rack that is supposed to move the rack to the starting position. That closes off the bleed ports in the pump. If the solenoid is releasing, figuring out if the fuel rack is actually moving to the start position would be the next logical step in the process. There may be access to the idle spring and idle control shaft on the opposite side from the shutoff, but I can't really say for sure. It just sounds to me like the next place to start poking.

 

[GJohnson]

I had that thought last night, Milkman. I pulled the plate off below the IP and turned the key to on position. I can see the pin in the rack move toward the shut off. I can move that pin with a finger easily. Over the course of a week messing with this thing, I have had no oil in coolant, no coolant in oil, no fuel in oil or any place it should not be. All things just lead me back to a weak IP or a full set of faulty injectors (seems unlikely). It never even tries to fire. Not once in a week of going over it and over it. I am hoping someone will look at this that has seen a weak pump and not a failed pump. Thanks again for your input. Much appreciated, sir. If you think of anything else, please advise.

 

[winston1]

Noting that you have had your injectors out you might consider pulling them, hooking up lines and letting them spray on cardboard. Remembering all the while that is high pressure and staying safe. Your spray pattern should tell you something.

 

[GJohnson]

Winston, That is a good idea to know if I have fuel getting to the cylinders at all, and obviously what kind of pattern I have on each one, if I do have pressure from the IP. It would not tell me if the pump is weak or injectors bad, but you’re right. It would be a great start. I see you’re a fairly close neighbor. Where do you buy parts for your machine? Assuming you’ve had to buy anything. I called Four Bros. out of Royce City/Terrell and that guy acted like it was a UFO. They are a Kioti dealer...

 

[winston1]

I think these dealers are all connected. I bought an oil pan for mine at the Longview location. They didn't have it in stock but no problem getting it. Bobcat Dealer Dallas Texas | Skid-Steer Loaders, Excavators, Compact Equipment Rental TX

 

[GJohnson]

Those are all connected. I talked to the Lewisville location. He is willing to test my pump and injectors separately. In fact, he will do a compression test and make sure the head is in good shape for fair money. Since I bought this thing at auction and have no history, I am going to take it to him (I have to go to Irving anyways) and let him have his way with it. I think after that, I will know where I stand and can take it from there. Might be the best option instead of throwing parts at it and hoping. I appreciate you thinking about it and making a really good suggestion.

 

[milkman636]

Please let us know what the problem was after it gets pinpointed.

 

[GJohnson]

I certainly will share what is figured out. They are a week away from even looking at it. He does not think it is the pump, surprisingly. We will see, I am still thinking weak pump, but he sure has another thought...that he did not share.

 

[GJohnson]

Update...still no good news. Bobcat North Texas has now tested the compression and says it is low. Since I have no history with it, I will have to go with their word, for now. Here is my problem...Bobcat does not want to deal with it as they ?do not have a direct connection with Daedong any longer. The relationship is with Doosan now.? and they own all four nearby Northeast Texas locations. The local dealer for KIOTI will not work on it because it is a bobcat branded tractor. Four brothers have the two local dealerships and told me they were not allowed to work on the tractor even though it is a Daedong product. I?m in limbo. Basically, all six locations near me are owned by two entities and do not want the work for some reason. Has anyone else ran into this? If so, what is the resolution? Four brothers did say they may can get the parts for a rebuild or a complete long block. They haven?t returned my call in two days. Anybody with any help, please jump in.

 

[winston1]

Out of curiosity, how many hours on your tractor? Did they share any numbers about your compression?? Book calls for 469 to 540 psi. Old age prevents me from remembering just what problem prompted me to go to the Kioti dealership in Tyler but I do remember being able to talk with their mechanic and although I did not use their services or buy any parts I did feel they were very willing to help in any way possible. Don't know they would even consider helping you but a phone call couldn't hurt. Kioti Tractors | Dowdle Motor Sales

It came to me, I was concerned about my travel pedal not releasing as I thought it should. The mechanic was very knowledgeable about it.

 

[GJohnson]

Winston1, I have a few questions for the bobcat guy. This tractor has a whopping 606 hours on it. Again though, I have no history as I bought it at auction. So previous owner may have run it with 0w oil or no oil, who knows. Before taking it to Lewisville they were gung-ho to work on it. After getting it there they seemed to drag it out and then finally call and tell me it had low compression. But could not tell me if maybe the injectors had leaks around them, head gasket might be bad or even a bad head, leaking valves...just seems like the tech spent about ten minutes pulling glow plugs and running compression test to say he had done it. I obviously need another shop as these guys, as friendly as they are, are not going to get it done. I’ll sure try the Tyler guys, thanks for that info. I was not aware of them. Four Bros acted like I had a space ship which was weird because he knew exactly what I have...they just can not work on space ships I guess.

 

[winston1]

Sort of hate to ask this question but do you know if starting fluid has ever been used on it? That low of hours just doesn't make sense with ring wear. Starting fluid can break piston lands on thee diesels. Just putting it out there for thought.

 

[GJohnson]

I have absolutely no history on the tractor. Everything related to cranking is in good shape, starter is strong, battery and all connections are good, glow plugs are strong so I want to say no need for starting fluid, but who knows. It is possible. I am not sold on the diagnostics just yet. I get that what he tested is low, although I do not know numbers yet. But cause of low compression does not necessarily mean rings are bad. There could be leaks in all of the other places I talked about in the last post. I feel confident that he did not test anything more once he saw that it had low compression. That is where I am going next, to test a few more things before just assuming it is rings.

 

[winston1]

Your absolutely correct, low compression can come from numerous causes. It would be nice and expected to get the numbers on each cylinder. Without them you don't know if one or all cylinders are low.

 

[GJohnson]

Update to the issue... Not much more info provided by Bobcat of North Texas. The only info they shared, because they did nothing more after finding low compression, is the values of each cylinder. All three are low, a minimum of 370 psi allowable, this one has 90, 106 and 130. So very low compression in all three. Here is more of the problem than low compression, and what people complain about the most. Help in parts and/or service is a huge issue. Bobcat does not want to work on it because they are not a machine shop. They just want a drop in motor to replace, which they have no availability, according to them. They can only buy parts through doosan but will not because they are not engine builders. Like I said before, I tried the KIOTI dealership nearest to me and they are completely useless unless you have a KIOTI they will not order parts for a bobcat branded machine even though they are the daedong dealer. I am resolved to Winstons advice to try the Tyler guys. I sure hope they can do something. At this point It seems all but impossible to find a willing participant for parts or anything at all, really.