Snow Equipment Owning/Operating Cutting / Groving / Siping R-4 for snow

[Mark Preston]

I have a little experience grooving and siping tires from racing a dirt late model. Most of what is stated here is pretty acurate. Siping and grooving tires on a dirt car provides significant amounts of added traction. There are complete books writen about the subject. I have experienced tire failure from over siping but never from over grooving. Siping cauces the edges to squirm and create a ton of heat which then can destroy the tire. I think on a slow rotating tractor tire grooving or siping wouldnt hurt the tire in any way, unless you went way overboard. On soft racing tires I have siped 12 blocks in a 1"x3" lug and it didnt fail, on a real abrasive track one night I cut the same lug in 8 blocks and didnt make the 25 laps before the right rear chunked out. The surface you are running on also makes a different. There are obvious differences between the two, but race car tires are super soft and if you screw it up they only cost 110 dollars or so and they are wore out in a couple of races anyway

 

[Deadman]

Never used this kind of tool......Is it "hard" to keep making straight nice cuts, or does it want to make ugly crooked looking cuts?
I'm just afraid if "I" do this, that the tires will look like crap, because my cuts are all crooked and uneven. I'm no artist, so thats my concern. lol

If I'm going to cut these, I want them to look like there were supposed to be cut, and not like a Kindergartner came and just cut them up.

I'd be all for buying a little more expensive tool if there is one that make the straight cuts easier and cleaner.

I'd also LOVE to cut my front R4's, but cut them the opposite way. They don't steer at all in snow, and I'm hoping I could change that with some cuts.

My buddies cut the tires on their mud trucks all the time and have no problems with them at all.

 

[Deadman]

Here is a couple quick videos I found on this.


YouTube - SUPER SWAMPER BOGGER TIRE GROOVING

YouTube - Grooving my mud tires

 

[teg]

Quick Tire Groover

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: I don't have one of the fancy irons but I do have a chainsaw!!!!

 

[NIdaho]

In this part of the country almost all equipment/Trucks run siped tires. I have always heard that the siping not only increases the traction but also lets the tire run cooler and thereby increasing the tread life. Walk thru the lots and every dump truck, logging truck, snowplow, ... will have siped tires.

 

[3Bladz]

Here is what I did to mine. Cuts are about 1/8 x 1/8

 

[Deadman]

Gladehound, Did you use the #6 head on yours? #6 is 3/8 inch, and I'm ready to buy a tool, but want to make sure that is about the size you used, as yours look real nice.

 

[Deadman]

I bought the knife with #3, #4, #5, and #6 heads and knives. Then i'll cut the fronts with smaller blades, and the rears with the bigger ones, most likely the #5.
I'm sooooooooo excited to be able to actually move on snow with these R4's!
My ATV would run circles around my JD2520 all because of these "Half Slicks" for tires. They won't really hurt the Turf much more in the summer either!

Thanks for the awesome idea! :thumbsup:

 

[gladehound]

Gladehound, Did you use the #6 head on yours? #6 is 3/8 inch, and I'm ready to buy a tool, but want to make sure that is about the size you used, as yours look real nice.

I used the #4 head which I think is just over 0.2" in width.

We had about 16" of very wet heavy snow yesterday (even had a little rain mixed in). this was the first time I had traction problems since siping the rears. But the rears weren't the problem! It was the fronts. I could not steer against the angle. I could go strait or turn with the angle but could not go against it. I WILL be grooving the fronts. Maybe this weekend. I'll post pictures! Hmmm... now what do I want my new tread patter to look like???

 

[gladehound]

Never used this kind of tool......Is it "hard" to keep making straight nice cuts, or does it want to make ugly crooked looking cuts?

I found it to be similar to using one of those small hand held jig saws. Maybe a little easier to go strait but no harder to turn. And believe me, I was not trying to make it look great. I was in a hury. If you take your time you will be able to put those grooves wherever you want them.

 

[Deadman]

Sweet thanks.
I'm planning on using the #5 on the rears and then take like a #3, or possibly #2 and groove the fronts the opposite way as the rears. The fronts are like "rudders" in snow, they only work to guide you as you go faster in deep powder. I usually don't even use the steering wheel in the snow, rather the rear brakes control my direction. The front R4's are pathetic when you actually try to "Work" them in snow.

Thanks for all the info.
Post some more pics if you do the fronts! :thumbsup:

 

[gladehound]

Just did the fronts! Wanted to keep the look similar to the rear for a matching set. Plus, since the bars turn at nearly a 45 degree angle my grooves go in 3 different directions. I'll try it like this first. If it's still sliding sideways I may cut the bars into 2 or 3 individual blocks. My objective is both better forward and sideways traction.

My fronts are much more worn than I realized. they have only 1/4" of tread in spots. So I set the groover to just under 1/4". There is one lug that actually already had a small chunk out of it. I have 420 hrs now and probably wont make it much past 500 hrs before I'll want new tires.

Here are some pics! They kind of remind me of a modern snow blower tire now. Hopefully they work like one!

 

[teg]

Traction aside... I love the look of it :thumbsup:

 

[gladehound]

Traction aside... I love the look of it :thumbsup:

I'm with ya teg! Makes me wish I could start over on the rears! :laughing: I'd match the fronts but with two grooves side by side since there is so much more rubber to work with out back. But I'll have to wait for the rears wear down 3/8" to be at my start over point.

 

[gladehound]

Plowed a drive today with about 16" of wet settled snow that had been driven over and packed down in spots. Would sometimes push 100 feet before stacking. My traction is good enough now that when pushing into a pile with snow under the tires, it's a crap shoot as to if I'll spin out or stall the engine. This is while using a gear that gives 3mph at rated engine speed. That's decent traction in snow! :thumbsup:

I still cannot break through that heavy deep snow with the blade angled because it pushes the front of the tractor too much. I need to push strait to break a path and then widen it with the blade angled. I have my blade hanging off my bucket which puts it too far out making it easier for the blade to push the front tires sideways. I'm thinking about a different mounting arangement.

 

[gladehound]

Just a quick update on how the grooved R-4s are working out...

I live in southeast PA. Our ice storm left about an inch of solid ice on the drive. It's about a 5% grade from the house down to the road. Unless your shoes had rubber that likes ice, you couldn't stand on it.

knowing from experience that my stock R-4's were worthless on ice, I did a test with 4 vehicles to compare tires and assess the grooved R-4's ice traction. The test was to drive down the grade towards the road at about 2-3 mph. Try to stop mid way (on the 5% grade) and then if successful try to back up the hill (total grade ~50 feet long).

Vehicles / tires / Drive system

Maxima / newish all season radials / front wheel drive
Minivan / new Hankook snow tires / front wheel drive
F250 / Cooper AT 50% tread / rear wheel drive and 4 wheel drive, limited slip rear
Tractor / Custom cut R-4's / rear wheel drive and 4 wheel drive

Results

Maxima - could not stop, slid to road
Minivan - stopped in ~2 feet, could not back up but did not slide down drive when trying
F250 in 2WD - stopped in ~5 feet, slid the rest of the way down drive when trying to back up.
F250 in 4WD - stopped in ~ 5 feet, backed up the drive with some wheel spin
Tractor in 2WD - stopped in ~10 feet (Brakes only on rears), could not back up but did not slide down drive when trying.
Tractor in 4WD - Stopped in ~2 feet (no wheel slide, could have hit brakes harder), backed up drive with almost no wheel spin.

I was surprised by several things. I didn't think the Cooper AT's would be much different than the all season on the car in ice. But that was not the case at all. They smoked the newer All terrains on the maxima.

I was surprised that in my best assessment, the grooved R-4's seem as good as the Hankook snow tires on ice. I thought the snow tires would smoke the groved R-4's. I'm wondering if the R-4's wont stay so good when the currently sharp edges of the grooves round a bit. time will tell (I can always recut)

I used the tooth bar to rip up the ice (gravel drive) and did not spin much at all even pushing hard enough to see my FEL flex. The tires were primarily on chipped ice and I made sure I was on flat ground or going down hill when ripping it up.

While I am sure that a set of V-bar chains in the rear would have been even better. I certainly didn't need any more traction. Considering what my V-bar chains do to my garage floor, I see no need for them in anything I've encountered this year (ranged from 16 inches of snow with several hour of rain in the middle of the storm [i.e. very heavy] to this ice storm). This winter has been a good test.

No new chunking on any of the lugs so far (did have one small piece chunked out on the front before I grooved the tires)

Very, very pleased with this mod

 

[k0ua]

Please continue to give updates, later during the spring and summer, with Mud, etc.. I am very interested, in this project. You did such a beautiful job, but I am afraid I could not make it look that pretty. Now you did this freehand? No guides or anything?.. I wish I lived nearby to bring my tractor over

Thanks for taking the time to document and photograph.

James K0UA

 

[Usta]

Just a quick update on how the grooved R-4s are working out...

I have loaded R4's with V-bar chains on the rear. No problem with traction.
Front slide/traction is my only problem.

I ordered and received my Ideal Heated Knife. I was ready to do my front R4's I have on the shelf and then looked at the new turfs I currently have on the tractor. The turfs that I have look like a very aggressive winter tread pattern.

Do you think grooving my R4's would give better traction than an aggressive turf?

 

[teg]

So you have a set of chains for sale yet?? :laughing: Went to the farm show looking for a tire groover, came up empty handed!

What do the vehicles weigh? Might make a difference...

 

[gladehound]

Please continue to give updates, later during the spring and summer, with Mud, etc.. I am very interested, in this project. You did such a beautiful job, but I am afraid I could not make it look that pretty. Now you did this freehand? No guides or anything?.. I wish I lived nearby to bring my tractor over

Thanks for taking the time to document and photograph.

James K0UA

Yes free hand. It's not hard. You could probably do better than you think