Damming small creek isn't working
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EddieWalker
Epic Contributor
Re: Damming small creek isn\'t working
The problem with daming up moving water is that it never gives up trying to destroy what you built. Even large government dam projects fail from time to time. Water is extremly aggressive and destructive.
You need to go back and think of building it twice as strong as you think it needs to be, than double it up again.
Depending on the worse case scenerio, you have to have a path for the overflow to go that can handle this situation. For some reason, the worse weather alwasy happens right after you build something!!!
Rock isn't a good material for dams anyway. Clay is the best for earthen dams. Rock is good for rip-rap. You put it on top of the dam at water line. It cuts down on the erosion from the waves hitting the dam. If you have animals the dig into your dam, it's also good at stoping or minimixing this.
In California, beavers are terrible at digging into the levies along the Sacramento delta. They use huge chunks of concrete to protect it, but still have failures after some really bad storms.
Good luck,
Eddie
The problem with daming up moving water is that it never gives up trying to destroy what you built. Even large government dam projects fail from time to time. Water is extremly aggressive and destructive.
You need to go back and think of building it twice as strong as you think it needs to be, than double it up again.
Depending on the worse case scenerio, you have to have a path for the overflow to go that can handle this situation. For some reason, the worse weather alwasy happens right after you build something!!!
Rock isn't a good material for dams anyway. Clay is the best for earthen dams. Rock is good for rip-rap. You put it on top of the dam at water line. It cuts down on the erosion from the waves hitting the dam. If you have animals the dig into your dam, it's also good at stoping or minimixing this.
In California, beavers are terrible at digging into the levies along the Sacramento delta. They use huge chunks of concrete to protect it, but still have failures after some really bad storms.
Good luck,
Eddie
thatguy
Elite Member
Re: Damming small creek isn\'t working
Beware... Here in VA you have to get all sorts of environment permits to modify a river/creek.. In VA you may have to go to the Dept of Tranportation, Dept Enviromental Quality, and/or the US Corps of Engineers.
Big fines if you get caught, even if you didnt realize it was wrong..
just so you dont get in trouble.. Relates to actions done the thread "neighbors, what can you do with them"
Brian
Beware... Here in VA you have to get all sorts of environment permits to modify a river/creek.. In VA you may have to go to the Dept of Tranportation, Dept Enviromental Quality, and/or the US Corps of Engineers.
Big fines if you get caught, even if you didnt realize it was wrong..
just so you dont get in trouble.. Relates to actions done the thread "neighbors, what can you do with them"
Brian
Highbeam
Super Member
Re: Damming small creek isn\'t working
Dam it!
Dam it!
ns_in_tex
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Re: Damming small creek isn\'t working
I think you are supposed to use sticks, twigs, leaves & an few tree limbs. At least that appears to be what the beavers do around here.
Feel free to come borrow some from my place. They seem to be pretty good engineers. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I think you are supposed to use sticks, twigs, leaves & an few tree limbs. At least that appears to be what the beavers do around here.
Feel free to come borrow some from my place. They seem to be pretty good engineers. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
PineRidge
Super Member
Re: Damming small creek isn\'t working
We've got a pack of them here also. Today I was out looking at all the damage to the trees that the've cut to make their dam and hut. What really amazes me is that this particular beaver dam has to be 9-12 foot high. I can't figure how these rodents move such a large amount of material without the use of a tractor????? The wife and I have never heard so much as a single tree fall in the 6 years that we've been here, yet they must be felling them on a daily basis. They must not yell timber very loud is all I can guess. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
We've got a pack of them here also. Today I was out looking at all the damage to the trees that the've cut to make their dam and hut. What really amazes me is that this particular beaver dam has to be 9-12 foot high. I can't figure how these rodents move such a large amount of material without the use of a tractor????? The wife and I have never heard so much as a single tree fall in the 6 years that we've been here, yet they must be felling them on a daily basis. They must not yell timber very loud is all I can guess. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
JimR
Elite Member
Re: Damming small creek isn\'t working
The trick is to keep the water on the other side. I have a dam behind my house on a man made pond. The back drops off about 5 feet below the water level. Here is how they built this dam. First, they installed a pipe with a large valve underground to let the water flow. Then they built a stone wall along where the dam ws going to be. Where the pipe was they made a spillway out of cement and above the pipe. The next layer on the water side was plain old dirt to fill in the rocks and make it smooth. Next layer was made from clay to make the wall impervious to water. Then the last layer was plain old dirt. The backside of the dam was also filled in with plain dirt. The valve was shutoff and the pond filled up. This dam has been in place since the 1940's. It did spring one leak due to to critters digging into the dam. They were dispersed by me. My farmer friend and I repaired the dam.
The trick is to keep the water on the other side. I have a dam behind my house on a man made pond. The back drops off about 5 feet below the water level. Here is how they built this dam. First, they installed a pipe with a large valve underground to let the water flow. Then they built a stone wall along where the dam ws going to be. Where the pipe was they made a spillway out of cement and above the pipe. The next layer on the water side was plain old dirt to fill in the rocks and make it smooth. Next layer was made from clay to make the wall impervious to water. Then the last layer was plain old dirt. The backside of the dam was also filled in with plain dirt. The valve was shutoff and the pond filled up. This dam has been in place since the 1940's. It did spring one leak due to to critters digging into the dam. They were dispersed by me. My farmer friend and I repaired the dam.
Re: Damming small creek isn\'t working
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( The trick is to keep the water on the other side. I have a dam behind my house on a man made pond. The back drops off about 5 feet below the water level. Here is how they built this dam. First, they installed a pipe with a large valve underground to let the water flow. Then they built a stone wall along where the dam ws going to be. Where the pipe was they made a spillway out of cement. The next layer on the water side was plain old dirt to fill in the rocks and make it smooth. Next layer was made from clay to make the wall impervious to water. Then the last layer was plain old dirt. The backside of the dam was also filled in with plain dirt. The valve was shutoff and the pond filled up. This **** has been in place since the 1940's. It did spring one leak due to to critters digging intot he ****. They were dispersed by me. My farmer friend and I repaired the dam. )</font>
When they made the spillway, was it just above the pipe with the valve? Does the water ever exceed the spillways capacity?
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( The trick is to keep the water on the other side. I have a dam behind my house on a man made pond. The back drops off about 5 feet below the water level. Here is how they built this dam. First, they installed a pipe with a large valve underground to let the water flow. Then they built a stone wall along where the dam ws going to be. Where the pipe was they made a spillway out of cement. The next layer on the water side was plain old dirt to fill in the rocks and make it smooth. Next layer was made from clay to make the wall impervious to water. Then the last layer was plain old dirt. The backside of the dam was also filled in with plain dirt. The valve was shutoff and the pond filled up. This **** has been in place since the 1940's. It did spring one leak due to to critters digging intot he ****. They were dispersed by me. My farmer friend and I repaired the dam. )</font>
When they made the spillway, was it just above the pipe with the valve? Does the water ever exceed the spillways capacity?
Dk45_Jeff
Silver Member
Re: Damming small creek isn\'t working
<font color="blue"> Beware... Here in VA you have to get all sorts of environment permits to modify a river/creek.. In VA you may have to go to the Dept of Tranportation, Dept Enviromental Quality, and/or the US Corps of Engineers. </font>
Huh, were you damming a navigable waterway or flooding a large wetland? Virginia's rules are fairly relaxed, at least in my county, they just follow the state dam safety program (Virginia dam safety program). If it doesn't effect wetlands and the pond is either exempt from the act or to be used for agricultural purposes the county does not even require a permit.
<font color="blue"> Beware... Here in VA you have to get all sorts of environment permits to modify a river/creek.. In VA you may have to go to the Dept of Tranportation, Dept Enviromental Quality, and/or the US Corps of Engineers. </font>
Huh, were you damming a navigable waterway or flooding a large wetland? Virginia's rules are fairly relaxed, at least in my county, they just follow the state dam safety program (Virginia dam safety program). If it doesn't effect wetlands and the pond is either exempt from the act or to be used for agricultural purposes the county does not even require a permit.
PineRidge
Super Member
Re: Damming small creek isn\'t working
<font color="blue"> When they made the spillway, was it just above the pipe with the valve? Does the water ever exceed the spillways capacity? </font>
This is one of the reasons that a pond needs a bit of good planning. An emergency spillway will divert water away, and around the dam in extreme conditions so the the dam itelf is not damaged by water running over the top.
<font color="blue"> When they made the spillway, was it just above the pipe with the valve? Does the water ever exceed the spillways capacity? </font>
This is one of the reasons that a pond needs a bit of good planning. An emergency spillway will divert water away, and around the dam in extreme conditions so the the dam itelf is not damaged by water running over the top.
stevenf
Platinum Member
Re: Damming small creek isn\'t working
widmn, If your dam is AG related I'd ask your natural resource department in Texas they are very helpful. We are on our third dam and after they sent an engineer out (for free) and he looked over our project and made some suggestions our state farm service agency helped us put it back the last time financially anyway they paid 80% after we had a big flood take it out but be warned when you let Uncle Sam in to help there are some documents to sign that are a little imposing. The biggest thing was we are responsible for the dam's well being for 10 years if any thing should happen to it even if we no longer owned the ranch we would have to bear the entire expense of replacing or repairing it. The first **** we had was 50' long, 10' tall and 20'wide with no spillway but lots of rock on top to protect it when water flowed over it, it lasted one year or the first big flood. The second (replacement) dam was 100' long 15' tall and 30' wide with a small spillway on the right side of the dam for water to run over, the spillway was about 20' wide and 4' lower then the dam in 2002 we had another flood the dam was totaled again. The current dam is 200'+ long 30' or so tall 50' wide and now has a spillway channel diverted from the inflow of the creek around the left of the dam the spillway is 30' wide and is 6' lower then the dam when it starts taking on flow and is excavated past the dam and back into the creek bed coming in about 50' past the dam plus we now have a 36" flow pipe in the center of the dam that starts picking up normal flow at 8' below the top of the dam so that when the flow pipe has 2' of water running thru it the water begins flowing out the spillway as well. This last dam is the one that we were helped with by our uncle and it should last 10 years without a problem it cost about 30k to put it back this last time.
Steve
widmn, If your dam is AG related I'd ask your natural resource department in Texas they are very helpful. We are on our third dam and after they sent an engineer out (for free) and he looked over our project and made some suggestions our state farm service agency helped us put it back the last time financially anyway they paid 80% after we had a big flood take it out but be warned when you let Uncle Sam in to help there are some documents to sign that are a little imposing. The biggest thing was we are responsible for the dam's well being for 10 years if any thing should happen to it even if we no longer owned the ranch we would have to bear the entire expense of replacing or repairing it. The first **** we had was 50' long, 10' tall and 20'wide with no spillway but lots of rock on top to protect it when water flowed over it, it lasted one year or the first big flood. The second (replacement) dam was 100' long 15' tall and 30' wide with a small spillway on the right side of the dam for water to run over, the spillway was about 20' wide and 4' lower then the dam in 2002 we had another flood the dam was totaled again. The current dam is 200'+ long 30' or so tall 50' wide and now has a spillway channel diverted from the inflow of the creek around the left of the dam the spillway is 30' wide and is 6' lower then the dam when it starts taking on flow and is excavated past the dam and back into the creek bed coming in about 50' past the dam plus we now have a 36" flow pipe in the center of the dam that starts picking up normal flow at 8' below the top of the dam so that when the flow pipe has 2' of water running thru it the water begins flowing out the spillway as well. This last dam is the one that we were helped with by our uncle and it should last 10 years without a problem it cost about 30k to put it back this last time.
Steve
JimR
Elite Member
Re: Damming small creek isn\'t working
I edited my first post to mention that the spillway was put in over the pipe. Actually the pipe is just off to the left side of the spillway in case it ever needs to be dug up. Water does flow over the spillway almost all year long. The pond has quite a few natural springs in it. The dam dirt level is actually 2 feet above the spillway.
I edited my first post to mention that the spillway was put in over the pipe. Actually the pipe is just off to the left side of the spillway in case it ever needs to be dug up. Water does flow over the spillway almost all year long. The pond has quite a few natural springs in it. The dam dirt level is actually 2 feet above the spillway.
thatguy
Elite Member
Re: Damming small creek isn\'t working
I have not tried it, but I was talking to a friend of mine who has worked for the VDOT environmental section and now the DEQ - he does nothing but work with streams, creeks, rivers, and wetlands. I mentioned that years ago I had wanted to try and dam up the creek behind my parents house to make a sorta pond. He just said you dont want to do that since you needed permit(s) to 'disturb' a stream/creek/rivers flow... It has something to due with water quality - ie muddying it up from movement, and other environmental issues.. You are even suppose to get a permit if you need to cross a creek/river on your land on a 'frequent' basis. Now the chances of getting caught may be slim, but could be costly..
good luck
Brian
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( <font color="blue"> Beware... Here in VA you have to get all sorts of environment permits to modify a river/creek.. In VA you may have to go to the Dept of Tranportation, Dept Enviromental Quality, and/or the US Corps of Engineers. </font>
Huh, were you damming a navigable waterway or flooding a large wetland? Virginia's rules are fairly relaxed, at least in my county, they just follow the state dam safety program (Virginia dam safety program). If it doesn't effect wetlands and the pond is either exempt from the act or to be used for agricultural purposes the county does not even require a permit.
)</font>
I have not tried it, but I was talking to a friend of mine who has worked for the VDOT environmental section and now the DEQ - he does nothing but work with streams, creeks, rivers, and wetlands. I mentioned that years ago I had wanted to try and dam up the creek behind my parents house to make a sorta pond. He just said you dont want to do that since you needed permit(s) to 'disturb' a stream/creek/rivers flow... It has something to due with water quality - ie muddying it up from movement, and other environmental issues.. You are even suppose to get a permit if you need to cross a creek/river on your land on a 'frequent' basis. Now the chances of getting caught may be slim, but could be costly..
good luck
Brian
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( <font color="blue"> Beware... Here in VA you have to get all sorts of environment permits to modify a river/creek.. In VA you may have to go to the Dept of Tranportation, Dept Enviromental Quality, and/or the US Corps of Engineers. </font>
Huh, were you damming a navigable waterway or flooding a large wetland? Virginia's rules are fairly relaxed, at least in my county, they just follow the state dam safety program (Virginia dam safety program). If it doesn't effect wetlands and the pond is either exempt from the act or to be used for agricultural purposes the county does not even require a permit.
)</font>
ToadHill
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Re: Damming small creek isn\'t working
When my brother and I were kids we built a dam across the creek on dads place. It worked very well and we had a nice swimming hole that summer. Next spring the runoff from the snow started moving small and some large rocks down the stream bed. Inside of five years the whole area was filled in with rocks and the swimming hole became a thing if the past.
When my brother and I were kids we built a dam across the creek on dads place. It worked very well and we had a nice swimming hole that summer. Next spring the runoff from the snow started moving small and some large rocks down the stream bed. Inside of five years the whole area was filled in with rocks and the swimming hole became a thing if the past.
Dk45_Jeff
Silver Member
Re: Damming small creek isn\'t working
Brian,
Your friend was over stating the requirements. Virginia Administrative Code Chapter 32 (VIRGINIA POLLUTION ABATEMENT (VPA) PERMIT REGULATION) Section 40 specifically excludes ponds built for agricultural purposes and other routine agricultural operations from the VPA permit requirements. Most county erosion control codes also exclude agricultural operations. Wetlands can complicate the issue, but for most land owners in VA building a small pond does not require a lot of red tape if they can claim its for farm purposes.
Brian,
Your friend was over stating the requirements. Virginia Administrative Code Chapter 32 (VIRGINIA POLLUTION ABATEMENT (VPA) PERMIT REGULATION) Section 40 specifically excludes ponds built for agricultural purposes and other routine agricultural operations from the VPA permit requirements. Most county erosion control codes also exclude agricultural operations. Wetlands can complicate the issue, but for most land owners in VA building a small pond does not require a lot of red tape if they can claim its for farm purposes.
thatguy
Elite Member
Re: Damming small creek isn\'t working
I have no idea what section of the Code my friend was refering to (could be multiple areas for all I know), but his entire career with VDOT and DEQ has been in permitting, wet land remediation, stream restoration and the such. What is being done here could be exempt, I dont know - but my entire point is that you need to be aware that you MAY need a permit..
Better to get it right before you start than get in trouble and go "I wish I had known that before I started". Refer back to the "neighbors, what to do with them" post and how the man is know having to undo what he did over wetlands.
I have no idea what section of the Code my friend was refering to (could be multiple areas for all I know), but his entire career with VDOT and DEQ has been in permitting, wet land remediation, stream restoration and the such. What is being done here could be exempt, I dont know - but my entire point is that you need to be aware that you MAY need a permit..
Better to get it right before you start than get in trouble and go "I wish I had known that before I started". Refer back to the "neighbors, what to do with them" post and how the man is know having to undo what he did over wetlands.
Dk45_Jeff
Silver Member
Re: Damming small creek isn\'t working
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Better to get it right before you start than get in trouble )</font>
I agree, though I would add not to let a bureaucrat tell you can't without seeing the rules for yourself. In Virginia you should both contact your county's DEQ and read the states and local codes yourself. Or if someone doesn't like doing the legal research he should consult an attorney. I've done both to get a warm fuzzy the county employee wasn't leading me astray.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Better to get it right before you start than get in trouble )</font>
I agree, though I would add not to let a bureaucrat tell you can't without seeing the rules for yourself. In Virginia you should both contact your county's DEQ and read the states and local codes yourself. Or if someone doesn't like doing the legal research he should consult an attorney. I've done both to get a warm fuzzy the county employee wasn't leading me astray.
