Dealers on this site and cheap customers

[MikePA]

Great advice, Bird, as usual! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif It's what I do as well.

I've never believed it was my job to determine what someone else's 'fair profit' should be. Rather it's my job to determine what I'll pay. If that's the selling price, great. If not, I say thanks and leave.

Perhaps it's from my work experience, but I don't share price quotes with other dealers, even if they ask. At work, we send out RFPs, ask qualified vendors for their Best And Final Offer, then select the winning vendor. The losing vendors are not told why they weren't selected except in the most general terms, which does not include where their price was in relation to the other vendors.

 

[YanmarFever]

We price our tractors rock bottom to begin with so we dont negotiate much here. But attitude goes a loooong way with me too.
Ernies imports

 

[Farmwithjunk]

And I'm almost the complete 180 degree oposite. I don't expect to buy or sell much of anything WITHOUT some haggling. (Negotiating?) Some people get upset when I do it. Some people only get upset when they're selling. They in turn, try their hand at haggling when they buy. Bottom line, it's all part of the game. If you don't want to negotiate, hold your line in the sand, so to speak, but I sure don't get mad when someone starts trying to undercut my price. I EXPECT it. I have a dollar figure in mind when pricing work, when buying or selling items, or any other cash transaction. I won't go under that limit.

 

[2nstonge]

I see both sides of it on a daily basis in my home improvement/handyman business. More stories than I can share on this board, but here's one that still bugs me;

I'm doing handyman work for a customer who's selling her current house & building an $800k home. I've seen a parade of contractors come thru her current house and charge outrageous prices for work as she preps to sell it ($3k to box blade a 100ft driveway?! Literally, two hours work and this guy dragged his feet to make it take that long). Not a complaint from her, happy to have it done.

Anyway, for some reason she has a hair across her backside for the guy who mows her lawn. $30 a shot (about a 1/2 acre), he's there every week, same day, same time and usually in and out in a half hour. He's a one man band, not a slick operator but does a decent job. If she wants him to weed whack or blow leaves he charges extra - $10-$20 depending how much to do - this galls her to no end, he should be doing this as a free benefit to his steady customers. Every week she complains to me about his rates, I finally got to the point where I had to speak up (politely); "think about it for a minute, he has to drive here, that's time off the clock, he has a truck and equipment to buy & maintain; fuel, insurance, repairs...if he hits a rock in your yard in our nice Vermont soil and ruins a blade he makes no $$ mowing your yard this week..." and on it went. Now, she's a smart woman, started and ran her own company for years but I could just see that vacant look in her eyes that she just wasn't getting it. So I let it go.

The subject doesn't come up again for the next few weeks (this is last October). I show up on the appointed day and she's outside, in the driving rain (it's been raining to beat the band for days), mowing her lawn. She's furious, the lawn guy was a 'no show' on this given day and although he doesn't know it yet, he's just been fired. She thought about mowing her lawn and raking her leaves for the rest of the season and complained about it every step of the way. She asked me if I would take it over and I declined, I told her that at $30 I wouldn't be making any money on that job. I got the same vacant look again and within a couple of weeks she stopped scheduling me for other work. Go figure.

-Norm

 

[turbo36]

That is the difference between "want" and "need" she "wanted" the driveway fixed and was willing to pay any price as it was something new or better, therefore she had her focus on the improvement and not the price. She "needed" the grass cut and as this wasn't anything new or better just simply returning it to the original cut condition it wasn't exciting so she could only focus on the price. This is typical human nature.

 

[Soundguy]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I never haggle on price .... What I don't understand about hagglers is that a haggler will assume that I priced an item higher than it's worth so I can drop the price to close the deal, In my mind thats like accusing me of being a thief )</font>

Here's my take on the issue. On 'hard' priced items and stores.. like fixed retail outlets.. you don't see haggeling. For instance.. no one goes to a gas station and hagles with the clerk over the price of a gallon of gas.. or into walmart and hagles over the price of a washcloth.. Now.. where there is a perception of soft pricing.. that is.. if someone thinks there is any fat in the mix.. lie say.. car prices.. where there is a negotiable layer of commission, and a 'floating' amount of profit range the dealer is palying with.. then certaintly.. some people haggle. For instance.

We went out to eat with some friends a few years ago.. on the way home we stopped by a car lot to look at trucks. Both my friend and I haul horses alot and needed larger trucks. We were looking at a few different trucks, and been showed the sales price. My friend and his wife stayed while we went back home to get my truck to trade. When i got back, our sales price had dropped. My friend had negotiated a lower price based on us each buying a vehicle.. etc.. I'd agree that in that situation, there was 'much' play between the posted price, and what the dealer 'needed' to come out.

Also.. as another example... looking at the retail fuel and washcloth example I posted about. While i wouldn't haggle at the retial level, if I were buying from the manufacturer or the importer, and purchasing in bulk, I'd inquire about price breaks due to quantity.

The local feed co-op will give price breaks by weight.. 1st discount at 500#, 2nd discount at 2000# 3rd and last discount at semi-trailer load... however.. the discounts are not automatically applied... you have to ask for them /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

One last area I might see haggeling is on clearance or returns type items. I have bought a few things that way.. one was a large lawnmower that had been at sears for 2 ys.. had a little rust... as soon as the manager saw me even glance at it, he mentioned that he would love to sell it. I looked at at and said would you love to sell it at a couple hundred off the price marked on the tag. He smiled and said he'd love to... and did... similar situation at another box store recently on a leftover farm vehicle I bought... was 1yr plus old, and the new models were in... Again.. same situation.. as soon as the amnager sees you looking at it they ask what they can do to sell it to you.. In this case they couldn't drop much off.. but offered 50$... that was enough of an incentive for me... etc.

Had it been a new unit.. I wouldn't even have considered anything but the sticker price.. etc.

One other point.. My wife and her mother travel overseals extensively.. some of the asian and soviet countries.. The encounter lots of open markets.. bazaars.. etc. Virtually 100% of those sales are negotiated on the spot. No prices marked. And many of the sales are dependent on what currency you are paying with. There was actually an instance where my wife was buying something with us dollars and not the native coin.. and got a better deal by paying in dollars vs native money.. even though she was paying less due o the exchange rate. In that area.. us dollars were very much sought....

That's my .02$ anyway..

Soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( And I'm almost the complete 180 degree oposite. I don't expect to buy or sell much of anything WITHOUT some haggling. ...If you don't want to negotiate, hold your line in the sand(Negotiating?) )</font>

Good way of saying it. When I'm at a tractor dealer.. specifically.. I may ask if the price is firm.. if it is.. then I decide from there.. if they indicate it is.. byut mght wheel and deal on some implements.. then there you go..

No one needs to get mad and think they are being called a thief.. It's just the nature of trade.... and it's been going on before coins were minted.. etc.

Soundguy

 

[CT_Tree_Guy]

<font color="blue">I have a dollar figure in mind when pricing work, when buying or selling items, or any other cash transaction. I won't go under that limit. </font>

Especially when pricing my work, what I am saying is that "that limit" is the honest price that I just handed my customer on a written quote.

If I were to then agree to do the job for less than that price, they would have every reason to believe that the price I first gave them was not my "best" price.

I just think this whole haggling thing has a lot to do with respect. Respect for yourself, in knowing what you deserve to get and accepting no less, and respect for your customer, in giving them your "best" price right up front. At the risk of using a subjective term, I believe this approach is simply more "professional" than leading with a price that is not your "best" price.

And just because one can talk someone down doesn't mean that it's a "good" thing to do.

When one goes to a mechanic and he says it'll be 400 bucks to do your brakes, how comfortable are you going to feel when you're driving around in the car that he just grudgingly worked on for $350?

I like the way I do my pricing, and as I said, I sleep very well at night.

 

[strokerduster]

to a certain extent, you can control the dealing. when i traded tractors a few months ago, i tried my dealer of 1st choice and the deal wasn't what i was hoping for. biggest thing was he really didn't want my trade. thought my jd 2210 would compete with kubota models he had on the lot. i had done a complete detail and serviced my 2210 where all he would have to do is put it on the lot. when it became obvious he wasn't going to haggle, i decided to try a dealer i had not approached (70 miles away). i emailed em a few good detailed pictures, offered to haul myself and faxed a copy of a completed credit app i downloaded from kubota's website ( kinda to prove i wasn't bluffing). "MAKE ME A DEAL I CAN'T REFUSE". when the salesman called, he offered to accept 500.00 less for his tractor with a larger mmm than dealer #1 and offered 750.00 more for my trade. done deal, over the phone. ONE DAY after i picked up my new rig, the new owner of my 2210 called to ask what kind of oil i had been running in it. dealer #2 sold 1 new rig and 1 used rig and made 2 new customers in 48 hours. my opinion is dealer #1 shot himself in the foot. bottom line, i think there is a time and a place to haggle and it isn't over every little purchase. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

[EddieWalker]

Home Depot and Lowes will lower there price if your buying in bulk, or can prove the other, or somebody else is selling for less. It's not like a car dealership, but if you ask, you can save a few bucks. I had a manager at Lowes take ten percent off 20 sacks of readi mix just for asking. It happens, but usually it's when I'm spending thousands of dollars on lumber that they are the most flexible. Usually I buy my materials at McCoys since they are so much easier to get discounts out of.

One of the most annoying things about car dealerships and their flexible pricing is when they advertise a vehicle and say it's $4,000 to as much as $10,000 off list price. Am I to understand that they were makeing over $10,000 profit on that vehicle before the sales price? Sure sounds like it to me.

As for customers on jobs I do, I put my bid in writing and it's a take it or leave it option. When hiring subs to do work for me, I ask them for their price and chose from there. I don't haggle on service, but will chose who to hire partially on price, the rest on qualifications.

I bought my Century tractor over Kubota on a price difference of $4,000. Kubota had hydrostat transmission that Century doesn't have, plus better resale, but that wasn't worth $4,000 more to me.

Eddie

 

[Bird]

Eddie, I don't think they advertise it, but I recently learned that Lowe's gives a pretty good discount to any military or retired military personnel if they just show their ID card. One of my brothers learned about it by accident when the person at the cash register asked him about the retired Air Force cap he was wearing. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[tractorwheel]

Norm, great story. Sorry to hear she stopped scheduling you for work though. Wouldn't it be fun to have that kind of money. I would buy all kinds of tractors and equipment and have a ball doing it myself. She needs a date.
(I am trying to be humerous about this, I do not mean to offend anyone reading this) /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[WVBill]

Soundguy -
Your comment about your wife's overseas travel brought back a funny memory -

It was the early '70's and I was in the Navy on the USS Midway. We pulled into Singapore and in briefings before we were allowed to go ashore they told us that the "locals" expected us to haggle over prices - it was their way of life. So when we found a McDonalds in town one of my buddies tried to negotiate the price of a Big Mac. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
..you had to be there....

 

[2nstonge]

I hear where you're coming from. The tag line on my business is "Good work at a fair price - it's that simple." It's on my written proposals and my invoices (I don't do any work without a signed proposal and provide every customer, even the $50 job, an invoice/receipt for their records). Most people seem to get it. If someone asks about price I tell them that "I have to make a living, not a killing, but a living". That has aways ended the discussion.

The customer who says they'll shop around, I wish them luck and remind them my quote is valid for 10 days. If they call back after price shopping (always takes more than 10 days) I add 25% to my original quote - and an extra week or two before I can get there. I don't think I've lost a job to just pricing, although I do get many customers with a list of "this will only take you 5 minutes" extra's once I'm on site. I don't play that game either. I tell them I'm happy to look at it once the original 'hit list' is complete, if 'we' have time and they're ok paying more for the additional work then we do it, if not, I'm going home (exceptions, of course for repeat customers who don't abuse the freebie). Learned that lesson the hard way.

I've even had some customers who are about to refer me out to a friend tells me to take the "Good work at a fair price..." quote out of my proposal material because their friends "can afford it". Works for me.

-Norm

 

[2nstonge]

Tractorwheel - Yeah, it was a bummer to lose that solid one-day-a-week gig but I figure if she punted me over a $30 lawn mowing job (which I don't do anyhow!) then it was best to be cut loose.

I did get invited to her Xmas party, I went, and she made a point to introduce me to her 'new' handyman. After a couple of beers by the fire he started complaining about how difficult it is to work for her...too funny.

My wife agrees with you, she (customer) does need a date.

-Norm

 

[CT_Tree_Guy]

<font color="blue"> My wife agrees with you, she (customer) does need a date. </font>

Aaah, how I do love a good euphemism. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Funny how this reminds me of a certain line from "Good Morning Vietnam" .....

Oops, here comes a moderator, gotta go!

 

[meledward23]

I do free lance Landscape Design work on my spare time for individuals. My day job is for a 100% commercial company with strict specifications, blueprints, contracts, etc. I like the commercial world. Residential is very different. Since I take extreme pride in my work I spend several hours discussing what they want. I then provide a proposal, a rough sketch of my vision, and a dollar figure. I always ask them for a budget. Because I can design a Mercedes, Toyota, or Kia landscape. They may all be four door sedans, but they are very different. Customers that tell me a budget get a design in budget. Those that wont give me a budget get a proposal only half the time at the most.

My price is firm. For those that take it they get more than they dreamed of. If I decide I forgot a tree, there isnt a change order, I buy it, install it and they come out ahead. I add shrubs, ground cover, bed lines, where I feel they need to be if I missed something. They client placed confidence in me at my price to give them what we discussed and that is what they get.

Then I run into the clients that wanted to spend 10K get my design and proposal and decide now that they want 9K. I redesign the project remove 2K charge 9K. and they get strictly what is listed in the proposal. Anything I feel I missed is to bad the moment they negotiate / haggle my price they loose all additional services.

In the end I do 95% of my work for people that except what I propose.

My point although long, drawn out, and probably poorly expounded upon is this :

Often you get what you pay for. If you haggle for a lower price from a tradesman often what you get is the bare bones minimal project. (and that may be okay if that is what you want or can afford). And if you higher a someone at their proposed price, they are more often willing to take care of things, get it done, and get it done right.

You can argue the above statement till you are blue in the face. There are exceptions to every rule. You could hire a wothless contractor at face value and get the screw. You could find some one that is haggleable (check that word out) and get a great deal. But I believe the law of averages would reveal the above to be accurate.

But who cares, Hagglers will haggle, others will never haggle, and some will be Half-Hagglers. In the end it takes all types to run this earth into the ground.

 

[CT_Tree_Guy]

<font color="blue"> Often you get what you pay for. If you haggle for a lower price from a tradesman often what you get is the bare bones minimal project (and that may be okay if that is what you want or can afford). And if you hire someone at their proposed price, they are more often willing to take care of things, get it done, and get it done right. </font>

Matthew, that post was neither long, drawn out, or poorly expounded. I could not echo your sentiments more completely. You said it all, and very well. "Pity the fool" who gives a price any higher than he deserves, accepts a price any lower than he deserves, or tries to keep anyone else from getting what that person deserves.

It comes down to respect for yourself, and probably even more importantly, respect for others. I firmly believe that those who lack such respect fall into the category of: [the] type [who] run this earth into the ground.

To anyone reading this: YMMV, but I hope it doesn't.

 

[riptides]

Good post! meledward23


Can we talk about this some more?


</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Often you get what you pay for. If you haggle for a lower price from a tradesman often what you get is the bare bones minimal project. (and that may be okay if that is what you want or can afford). And if you higher a someone at their proposed price, they are more often willing to take care of things, get it done, and get it done right. )</font>

Sellers (using this term lightly) have ask me for my budget on stuff. I find this annoying in the fact that I -
<ul type="square"> - Have attempted to frame what I need or want very carefully
- Am reluctant to share my financial information
- Want to hear some more information from them [/list]

Is this wrong? I feel if I tell you what I need or want, and you know my budget, you will maximize that budget for yourself.

So, I usually get around this detail by saying I have a budget, but show me your offers. accordingly.

In the case of meledward23's design work I find it even more curious that people would approach him without knowing exactly what they want?

My question is how doe you know x monies worth of work is x monies work?
Obvious to me, is I'd have to screen the person or company verrrry carefully.

Again, meledward23, you raise some interesting thoughts!

-Mike Z. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[CT_Tree_Guy]

Hi Mike, how goes it? Happy New Year!

I don't want to "steal Matthew's thunder", but I have some thoughts I'd like to share (surprise surprise). I hear you loud and clear that there are times when we don't want the seller/contractor to know how much we are willing to pay for something. When I look at a very well-defined, small-to-medium scale tree removal job, I wouldn't dream of asking the customer how much he wants to spend. But if someone points to a 2-acre jungle and says "please make it beautiful", that's different. Sometimes I'll say "it'll be X dollars per hour, or day - tell us when to stop" - or, "let us show you how much we get done in one day (8 hours on-site, no travel time), and if you like what you see, we'll keep going".

I can see Matthew's point very well, and don't envy him his estimating tasks. VERY different from tree removal, or buying a certain car, or tractor - SO many variables, and I can imagine how his customers sometimes don't even know what they want, or think they do only to "find out" differently.
I can definitely see where he practically HAS to determine a budget up front - how else to know how to design it, as he said. Hanging Gardens of Babylon, or just a nice little "make-over"?

So much of it comes down to trust. That's where reputation, referrals, personality, salesmanship, and just plain honesty and integrity come in. And carefully "screening" customers, so we don't end up wasting too much time on the ones who don't appreciate good, hard, honest, quality work at a fair price.