Diesel exhaust fluid

[Mikeeemo]

I think the fact that most of us do not want to enter politics, helps the government say in our business.

It is not just the government, I have had to endure some very bad business models over the last four years that has brought my company to its knees. We have finally returned to our previous model and are regaining traction.

There is no substitute for personal responsibly at home, work, personal & public lives.

We have too many that have been convinced that "it's not my problem". Well..... It is your problem, and mind.

I have told my son his whole life, "if doing the right thing was easy, then everyone would do it".

Mike.

 

[schoolsout]

DEF consumption should be about 2-2.5% of fuel used

SCR is proven technology with not many, if any, bugs left in it. It's been in use overseas for sometime, now.

It provides better fuel mileage over just a DPF because the vehicle does not need to regenerate as often.

There will probably be even more changes coming in a few years, but I have heard Obama is backing off of this for now. Basically, since 2007 emissions, class 8 trucks have gone up by about $20k due to the emissions stuff. Medium Duty is up about $12k or thereabouts.

 

[schoolsout]

The EGR based systems rely on creating colder combustion temperatures and recirculating large amounts of EGR. This creates a cooler combustion which results in less NOX. However anybody who payed attention in school knows that cooler combustion is more inefficient. Which holds true, with the cool combustion the particulates do not get burned which causes the DPF to plug up much faster than on an SCR motor. Also due to the cooler more incomplete combustion fuel efficiency suffers. In addition the added particulates in the system cause premature wear and require more frequent oil changes (Example is the 200hr OCI on the John Deere(EGR) versus the 600hr interval on the case IH (SCR)or 400hr interval on the Massey/Challenger(SCR))

Navistar/International refused to pay attention to the laws of physics and are producing a MASS EGR system that simply does not work. Their stock and customers are suffering because of it. They've since purchased an SCR type company that utilizes solid urea (who will sell that as readily as the liquid the rest of the industry uses is a large unknown at this point).

Bottom line is SCR has been proven and is reliable. Don't be scared of it.

The really neat thing is you will not see the inside of exhaust pipes turning black under normal operation...the exhaust is very clean.

 

[JasG]

Navistar/International refused to pay attention to the laws of physics and are producing a MASS EGR system that simply does not work. Their stock and customers are suffering because of it. They've since purchased an SCR type company that utilizes solid urea (who will sell that as readily as the liquid the rest of the industry uses is a large unknown at this point).

Bottom line is SCR has been proven and is reliable. Don't be scared of it.

The really neat thing is you will not see the inside of exhaust pipes turning black under normal operation...the exhaust is very clean.

Navistar, Deere and Cat all are using EGR because the EPA in the late 1990's and again in 2001 mandated it. All of the engines these companies are using now were in develpment for years. Now all 3 are scrambling to try and catch up. All of the other engine builders using SCR from Cummins, Mack, DD, etc have European partners that already had SCR.

Cat and Navistar sued the EPA back in the late 1990's to get around EGR. Now Navistar is still suing because the rule in the late 1990s basically said they had to use EGR forever. Then around 2009 the rules changed and allowed SCR. That wasn't enough time for these 3 to change what they had done.

This is also the main reason Cat walked away from over the road engines.
The reason people and Navistar are suffering is the EPA wouldn't allow SCR 10 year ago.

This below outlines their 1st lawsuit when the rules changed to allow SCR.
Navistar challenges EPA diesel regulations - NYTimes.com

Also SCR has nothing to do with the black inside the exhaust pipe. That would be soot, the SCR is to reduce the NOx that forms at high cylinder temperatures which tend to burn better and generate less soot. The fuel milage comes back because they can use higher pressure and temp and get more complete combustion. The regneration had some effect on fuel usage, but not as much as the EGR was causing.

 

[schoolsout]

Pretty sure Navistar could have gone the SCR route, but they chose not to expecting to, at least, buy credits from the gov't for their engines...that didn't happen (going from memory here). They're in-house team of experts said the MASS EGR would work (this is not the EGR from yesteryear where most all trucks had issues with them...I think that was '04 emissions stuff) and the rest of the world said you can either have low horsepower/low heat generation or high horsepower/high heat generation...Navistar refused to accept the laws of physics and has put out bombs. We're seeing fleets negotiate with Navistar for guaranteed buybacks should the trucks not work....and we're getting orders to replace the new Navistars.

CAT was planning to use a Navistar chassis for their engine to introduce a new Class 8 vocational line up. Since problems with Navistar and whatnot, I think CAT dropped the deal with Navistar (again, going by memory here)

And you are right that the SCR injection isn't doing the soot cleaning, the DPF is. The DPF is still present on SCR systems, though.

Disclaimer: I work for a commercial truck dealership (Mack/Volvo/Isuzu)

 

[schoolsout]

FWIW...

Maxx Force 13 Engines - Truckers Report Trucking Forum | Largest CDL Truck Driver Message Board


Serious issues with these engines. The last bid we did for a municipality, an International was low bid...lower than Freightliner (usually lowest around here). The International dealers are trying their best to give them away because they are nothing but problems.

 

[JasG]

Pretty sure Navistar could have gone the SCR route, but they chose not to expecting to, at least, buy credits from the gov't for their engines...that didn't happen (going from memory here). They're in-house team of experts said the MASS EGR would work (this is not the EGR from yesteryear where most all trucks had issues with them...I think that was '04 emissions stuff) and the rest of the world said you can either have low horsepower/low heat generation or high horsepower/high heat generation...Navistar refused to accept the laws of physics and has put out bombs. We're seeing fleets negotiate with Navistar for guaranteed buybacks should the trucks not work....and we're getting orders to replace the new Navistars.

CAT was planning to use a Navistar chassis for their engine to introduce a new Class 8 vocational line up. Since problems with Navistar and whatnot, I think CAT dropped the deal with Navistar (again, going by memory here)

And you are right that the SCR injection isn't doing the soot cleaning, the DPF is. The DPF is still present on SCR systems, though.

Disclaimer: I work for a commercial truck dealership (Mack/Volvo/Isuzu)

I think your memory is off or maybe you are reading propaganda from the products you sell. :laughing:

Before 2009 the EPA was very clear they would not certify any engine not using EGR only. This was based on CARB crap. That is why there were not very many european diesels in large trucks from 2003 to 2010 and no SCR engines in the US before 2010. The Navistar engines are based on Caterpillar tech that they had spent years and Cat claims $1 billion developing based on the old EPA rules. Navistar bought the plant and design rights for the engine from Cat when Cat walked away from over the road application. Cat and Navistar have worked together on tech for a while so the class 8 truck is a good fit. Don't know if it will sell here or not, but I have seen pictures from overseas of the trucks. Don't know if they are test trucks or what they are.

It is also why Kubota is using EGR all the way up though. From what I have read they want to wait as see if the EPA changes the rules again before they make a change.

The whole credits thing was if you didn't meet a emssion level by a certain date. It has nothing to do with what system you use, Cat had to buy credits early on because they couldn't meet emissions on time.

As far as people staying away from EGR trucks, I don't doubt it. EGR causes more soot to be produced which ends up being put back into the engine reducing fuel mileage and increases wear and tear. That is why Cat never wanted to use it in the 1st place. I know of several people with Cummins EGR engines in their large trucks and they have been nothing but problems, including 50% less engine life.

I follow diesel emmision closely for a couple of reason. I help some local farmers with deciding on equipment. I have also owned Cat and Deere stocks for about 15 years, so I follow both companies.

 

[schoolsout]

I'm just going by what industry insiders have been saying.

Fleets (around us) are distancing themselves from the Navistar product.

 

[pilot-werx]

I have finally had enough of the DEF and did something about it. I added a tuner and wiped out the def program.....

 

[Beltman60]

pilot
I know this is an old thread but how is your truck holding up with your def delete?
just bought a 2011 3500 duramax with 78K and was thinking of doing it