DIY 50 hour service questions - GC17xx

[MFRED]

Don't fill it right to the top. Best advice is keep track of how much you're putting in the front axle. And don't be afraid of the trans/hyd. In the front axle, you're not building enough heat through normal use to get good flow of the thicker oil. Just my opinion. Mostly.

 

[ray66v]

Don't fill it right to the top. Best advice is keep track of how much you're putting in the front axle. And don't be afraid of the trans/hyd. In the front axle, you're not building enough heat through normal use to get good flow of the thicker oil. Just my opinion. Mostly.

The 80-90w is not thicker. They are basically the same viscosity.

It is a popular misconception that it's heavier. But, gear oil is not rated on the same scale.

Both the transmission oil, and the 80-90w are light weight gear oil. That's why they are interchangeable in some applications.

 

[AxleHub]

Well . . Its been a day of new thoughts and surprises.

I haven't talked to my regular dealernyet but I wanted to get a quote from a closeby Masdey dealer on what they would charge to do a 50 hour service at their location. I was a little surprised to discover they had to do some research and get back to me. It was quite a delay before I heard back. They estimated it would be 3 hours of labor (not including doing the oil and oil filter. That seemed like a longr period tjan I wouldbhave guessed basrd on it being a routine activity. So without the oil change and oil filter it would be about 400.00nplus tax.

Also I'd asked about the idea of using gear oil in the front instead of transmission fluid. The service department recommended synthetic instead at an extra cost . . Because gear oil would bevthicker in winter than transmission fluid. Hmmmmm ????

Anyway I was talking to a certified diesel mechanic who I know and he said he'd be willing to do it for me
For half the labor cost and then I supply the fluids and filters.

Sooooo that sounded like a very good opportunity to get an even better service work and adjustment done . . not just because its cheaper . . but he's quite thorough in evaluations and he'd also check adjustments and fits . . And then show me what he's doing so I can do it all myself which was my original desire.

Do now what I'm looking for over the next week or so is ideas of what are thr best fluids to choose for my massey sub compact. I'll continue using the synthetic oil I previously chose.

I don't know didfly about hydraulic fluid choices other than Massey recommending Permatran. Is there something preferred over permatran . . after all whatever I get . . It will be in the tractor for a couple hundred hours. And the gear oil choice for my mmm . . . and what to use in the front axle.

I'm not saying money is no object . . but I'm really not thinking private store brand. Anything ill be using for hundreds of hours probably justifies considering advantages over price as long as I'm avoiding dealer rates and getting better training too.

So now im asking for fluid recommendations and why one might be preferred over another.

One might also ask "well if this friend is a certified diesel mechanic .
wouldn't he have his own choices?".

Well that's why this situation works out so nice. He knows I like maintenancing my own mororcycles and trucks and cars and lawn mowers. He knows I like saving money but I don't like cutting corners. And he knows Ive never owned diesel units prior. So he thought it would be smart to have tractor
Viewpoints rather than diesel truck viewpoints

Here's considerations: This is Westetn WI . . Not the sunbelt states and my tractor doesn't live in a heated and cooled environment like its owner . . Although I certainly warm it up properly. And keep it dry and away from rodents.

 

[ray66v]

Also I'd asked about the idea of using gear oil in the front instead of transmission fluid. The service department recommended synthetic instead at an extra cost . . Because gear oil would bevthicker in winter than transmission fluid. Hmmmmm ????

Yes, in super cold conditions, i.e. -20F, mineral based gear oil will start to become heavier. It still works fine in cars though doesn't it?

If your service department "experts' don't know there is synthetic gear oil, perhaps you should enlighten them, before they give any more bad advice.

I always suggested the synthetic gear oil. You can get it for a few bucks more.

I researched this thoroughly years ago. I discussed it with senior NASA engineers, a retired TRW failure analysis Engineer, a retired chemical engineer who worked in the petroleum industry, and others.

There is no question that EP gear oil protects hypoid gears the best.

There may be a question as to whether it's necessary.

You guys can run transmission oil.

 

[AxleHub]

I always suggested the synthetic gear oil. You can get it for a few bucks more.

I researched this thoroughly years ago. I discussed it with senior NASA engineers, a retired TRW failure analysis Engineer, a retired chemical engineer who worked in the petroleum industry, and others.

There is no question that EP gear oil protects hypoid gears the best.

There may be a question as to whether it's necessary.

You guys can run transmission oil.[/QUOTE]

Yes, in super cold conditions, i.e. -20F, mineral based gear oil will start to become heavier. It still works fine in cars though doesn't it?

If your service department "experts' don't know there is synthetic gear oil, perhaps you should enlighten them, before they give any more bad advice.

Ray or othets,

1. I asked the service guy about synthetic gear oil for the front end and he said it wasn't a bad idea . . But I couldn't remember why gear oil might be better than tranny fluid.

2. Would you recommend the same thing for my mmm gear box also?

3. What would you recommend for the rear hydro fluid . . . Permatran or something else ?

 

[ray66v]

When you have hypoid gears, the way they mash, they can create extreme pressures.

A differential has hypoid gears.

There is gear lube, and there is also "EP" gear lube. A gear lube that is rated for extreme pressures, will have the designation "EP" on the bottle. Such as EP 80-90w. or 80-90w EP. This product has special additives for extreme pressures.

EP gear lube offers superior protection, vs regular gear lube, when extreme pressures are involved.

Hydraulic transmission oil, is gear oil. it works in all three places on your tractor.

Hydraulic transmission oil, and 80-90w gear oil, are both light weight gear oil. And, the are about the same viscosity at room temp. For those who disagree, do a timed pour test, and check it for yourself.

EP gear oil will offer you better protection for the hypoid gears in your front axle, and your mower gear box, then hydraulic transmission oil, if you choose to use it in there.

It may not be necessary. And, it may not make any difference in the end, because you will probably never wear them out.

But, I can buy 2 quarts of synthetic gear oil for less than $10. So, on the recommendation of my panel, and the research I did into this, I have been using synthetic EP 80-90w in my front axle. It's been in there, since 2006.

 

[AxleHub]

Ray, 10 bucks seems like a pretty cheap investment for the front axle if synthetic ep 80-90w is an improvement.

So if synthetic Ep 80-90w gear oil is is a good thing for the front axle . . Is it equally as beneficial for the rear end or is that overkill.

Just wondering if Permatran is equal to or preferred compared to ep synthetic 80-90w gear oil for my resr end? I've heard pernatran isn't cheap either.

So I'm just looking for the best impact for the tractor in what I buy. Its one thing to do something for a 50 hour use . . . . Its quite something different when its for a 250 hour use.

 

[jlgurr]

My first fluid change didn't include the "rear end" as I believe it's fluid is one and the same as the hydro.

Sent from my iPhone 2.0 using TractorByNet

 

[ray66v]

Ray, 10 bucks seems like a pretty cheap investment for the front axle if synthetic ep 80-90w is an improvement.

So if synthetic Ep 80-90w gear oil is is a good thing for the front axle . . Is it equally as beneficial for the rear end or is that overkill.

Just wondering if Permatran is equal to or preferred compared to ep synthetic 80-90w gear oil for my resr end? I've heard pernatran isn't cheap either.

So I'm just looking for the best impact for the tractor in what I buy. Its one thing to do something for a 50 hour use . . . . Its quite something different when its for a 250 hour use.

NO, you you can NOT put straight gear oil in the transmission. There is more than just gears in there.

There are wet brakes that need special additives, among other things, like anti-foam agents.

I suggest Amsoil ATH synthetic, or Permatran in the transmission. Kubota SUDT, or Case HY-TRAN, are also supposed to be comparable, quality products.

You are only buying 5 gallons. When you consider that the synthetic can last longer, it's not necessarily more expensive.

 

[AxleHub]

NO, you you can NOT put straight gear oil in the transmission. There is more than just gears in there.

There are wet brakes that need special additives, among other things, like anti-foam agents.

I suggest Amsoil ATH synthetic, or Permatran in the transmission. Kubota SUDT, or Case HY-TRAN, are also supposed to be comparable, quality products.

You are only buying 5 gallons. When you consider that the synthetic can last longer, it's not necessarily more expensive.

Greetngs Ray,

See now I've read numerous threads over the last year talking about fluids to use in tractors. Every one of those threads was quite confusing because they all implied that transmisdion fluids and gear oils were interchangeable. And names like permatran and hy-tranand amsol and sudt and farm& fleet or tsc's store brands and traveller were all very similar.


So often in those threads its seemed like a situation where either gear oil or transmission fluid f the above brands were all completely interchangeable and for convenience you could just buy 1 thing to use for everything except the diesel engine oil.

But this thread has gone in a different direction from many others I've read. Let me see if I can re-state my new understanding using automobile relationships:

1. The front axle drive that needs to be drained and refilled is a differential not a transmission. And in an auto normally gear oil is used but in a tractor, transmission fluid or gear oil can be used in that front axle drive differential.

2. Why choose gearoil over transmission fluid (even really good transmission fluid) ? Well Ray tells me using gear oil works better for the interaction blend of the gears especially if the gear oil is EP rated. AND using synthetic gear oil is even better for cold climate use because it doesn't thicken in winter.

3. The small gear box on a mid mount mower also needs to be changed when servicing time comes. Again like in #2 above . . transmission fluid "could" be used . . but again with intermeshing of small gears under pressure . . EP gear oil may make better sense . . just as you'd use in a auto differetial. Now synthetic isn't required because you don't use a mmm in 0 degree temperatures . . but if you have it for the front differential you might as well use the same thing for the mmm gearbox too. I'd also assume any other gear box oriented units on 3 pt or front mount implements would be a similar story (cutters and snowblowers and tillers etc.) that have fluids in a gear box or differential.

Now let me define that every gear box is not a differential and every gear box doesn't require synthetic fluid and every gear box doesn't even require EP (extreme pressure) gear oil; however in the subcompact category on items that are long durations between fluid changes and in small quantities (because of subcompact sizes . . it would seem logical to have the same fluid choices being used so as not to mistakenly use the wrong one chosen or a bunch of smaller containers all opened and partially used.

4. The rear end is both the hydro drive transmission and rear axle combined. In this case because there is more than just a differential involved, I have to look at a different fluid choice than I do firvthe front-end. This is where transmission fluid truly is not interchangeable with gear oils. There might be numerous reasns why one transmission brand is chosen based on its adfitive combinations or brand identifications with equiment manufacturers. But because its in the unit for many hours before servicing it . . and its a very important wear component . . again in subcompact sizes it seems a better quality product is logical.

5. Finally . . Grease is yet another issue. I've been using a lithium high temp grease for zerk lubricating. Its red so its visible but more importantly again like the #3 gear oil choice . . I'd prefer one product choice that can be used in multiple locations effectively. Fel zerks need a lithium based grease . .but heat and speed spinning are not issues. But the mmm zerks have temperature and speed issues. That's why I chose the high temp product.



So does it look like I'm on the right track with the above 5 points?

A. The choice of a transmission fluid for a subcompact would seem more important than in a larger tractor . . as the quantity of fluid for tge hydro is much smaller.
So Amsol vs. Permatran vs. Sudt vs Hy-tran . . What is thevdifference in them?

B. It seems grease choices are also quite varied . . Not so much because of brands . . But because there are many formulations. I explained my thinking about choosing as I did. Are there issues I didn't properly consider ?