DK 45 50 hour service

   / DK 45 50 hour service #101  
Interesting again, I checked my manual for front wheel bolt/nut torque,
Front Bolts 57-67 Foot Pounds Front Nuts 46-54 Foot Pounds.

Rear Bolts 166 Foot Pounds Rear Nuts 166 Foot Pounds.

My manual indicates in chart on page 7-4 a circled dot in the transmission fluid change at the 50 hour mark, Circled dot means "must be done after 50 hour mark". And again at the 400 hour mark, this time circle no dot. Also the same for front axle fluid.


James K0UA

James,
The owners manual says what you stated. I promise you the tiny lug nuts on a car require more torque than that. That is why all of this is so confusing. The SERVICE manual states front wheel torque of 144ft lbs to 166ft lbs and that makes more sence to me. The rears were a average of 225ft lbs. I did not bring my service manual with me so I can't state the exact range. But I do know all of my rear axle and rim bolts were more than 225ft lbs. I will look and post tomorrow, maybe sooner if I can. CJ
 
   / DK 45 50 hour service #102  
Kiotis come with Ansung loaders over here. The size and tensile code are imprinted on the head of the bolt

The loader frame to tractor bolts torque ratings for different rated bolts are provided in the loader manual and are certainly higher than 60ft/lb.

The loader pin bolts are probably about 60 and they are the ones that I found do loosen a bit.

A 2 ft bar with a 1/2' swivel drive , called a breaker bar. Is that the same as a cheater bar.

There is nothing on the bolt heads from the mount to the tractor engine block. You can usually see like m8 m6 these have nothing except a few grade lines. I wonder if these are Ansung also? I knew I was safe at 60ft lbs so as not to pull any threads out of the engine block or mounts.

A cheater bar can be 2 things. A pipe you put on the breakerbar for more leverage OR a measured extension for a torque wrench to increase it's capacity. CJ
 
   / DK 45 50 hour service #103  
I posted this in another ongoing thread about the same issue but I'm adding it hear for what it's worth;


OK, after dealing with Kioti about my cab, I've made a few contacts there. I sent them an email this morning and recieved the following response. I'm not including any of their full names or email address.



> From: D------@kiotitractor.com
> To: ken.----------@hotmail.com; J-------@kiotitractor.com
> CC: JS-----@kiotitractor.com; B----@kiotitractor.com
> Subject: RE: 50 hr service issue
> Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 19:12:12 +0000
>
> Ken,
> I undeerstand the confusion concerning the fifty hour service. It has been open for discussion before. KIOTI reccommends changing all fluids at a fifty hour initial break-in service. The reasoning for this is too remove any material that may become dislodged or created as gears mesh themselves together. While KIOTI has very close tolerances in machining, the meshing or wearing in of gear sets may produce very fine particles that may or may not be captured by the filter. It is always a good rule to exchange the initial fluid out after the first fifty hours to flush the system thus removing any particulates and replace the filters as well. As the old adage goes, " A ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." Protection for your investment! Any further questions, feel free to contact me. Thanks!
> ________________________________

And that answer gentleman is a total POS non answer from Kioti Korporate with no supporting data and at least one seemingly ridiculous and unsubstantiated statement. If "very fine particles" "may or may not be captured by the filter" are an issue then why the heck don't they use a better filter? What damage is done by those hypothetical particles in the first fifty hours? As others have noted, crap in hydraulic fluid does damage real quickly and the appropriate way to deal with such a risk would be at the engineering and manufacturing stage, not at some vague 50 hour service point.

Kioti makes great tractors but the BS they distribute in poorly edited manuals and the fictions that their PR and customer service people like to throw out are evidence that they have just not yet reached the big leagues at least in the US operation.

The appropriate statement from Kioti on the 50 hour hydraulic oil change should reason something like this:

"Thank you for your inquiry regarding our confusing recommendation for a 50hr hydraulic oil change. We apologize as the confusion is clearly our fault. Frankly we don't know where that recommendation comes from as we have absolutely zero data on the matter. However, as some previous technical editor failed to bring these sorts of inconsistencies to our attention, and as my main job is to cover Kioti's *****, I will endorse the most rigid and uber conservative possible recommendation despite the utter lack of empiric evidence to back me up. Honestly though, we do not have any data to support our recommendation and the company does not feel it is worth assigning an engineer to look carefully into the matter or even to critically compare our own recommendation to that of major competitors. I would have called the engineer myself but I don't speak Korean so instead we looked at Kubota's website and see that they recommend changing the hydraulic oil at 50 hours. Since we respect Kubota's choice in paint color we decided to make a similar recommendation. We chose to completely ignore that John Deere does not even recommend an initial 50 hour service and doesn't recommend the first hydraulic filter and hydraulic oil change until 400 hours. Go figure! Not worth our time to understand what JD seems to know about tractor longevity and besides we don't trust their judgment on service matters due to their weird aesthetics on paint color. Besides, by recommending extra work we will make a bit more money for our dealers as many of you check writing slobs will be scared of touching hydraulic filters and that is the least we can do for the poor dealers who we force to jump through all sorts of equally stupid hoops.

Thank you for your inquiry to Kioti where the customer always comes first and we never bullsheet them.

Somewhat sincerely,
Your Kioti customer service rep "

The bottom line is that Kioti has drawn an arbitrary line in the sand and will now defend it with your your money and warranty rights. It is clear evidence that Kioti USA at the highest level is simply a marketing company with close to zero engineering capability. Presumably Daedong has good engineers as they produce a fine product but those engineers are somewhere in Korea and have not been tasked by management to address issues such as this. When Kioti finally matures to the point that good engineers write evidence based maintenance guidelines supported by data, Kioti will have reached top tier status along with Kubota and JD. Until then we will just need to follow the dictates of some technical editor who didn't bother to notice inconsistencies or lack of evidence for maintenance recommendations. If you don't like following the arbitrary Kioti recommendations then it would make most sense to see what JD and Kubota recommend on their similar machinery and follow those recommendations. Unfortunately in this instance that doesn't resolve the problem. It does point out however that Kioti basically just apes Kubota's service recommendations. I know this will be a shock to some folks who like to think of Kioti as an independent and leading tractor manufacturer. Apparently tractor paint color is more important than anything else in determining maintenance schedules.:(
 
   / DK 45 50 hour service #104  
I think Kioti (Daedong) makes a great tractor, and for me, it was the best choice, regardless of price and color. Unfortunately, Kioti produces SH&TTY documentation. The contacts I've made at Kioti came about because of the errors in the sales materials for the Kioti Comfort Cab. In that case, the website and pdf sales materials have been changed as a result of me pushing it with them, and I would think that the same may happen if other discrepancies are brought forward as well. The comfort cab, torque settings and oil change requirements are only 3 examples of confusing, conflicting or simply incorrect information and it should be in Kioti's interest to correct it after it's identified to them.

Ken I could not agree more. Like the others have stated, the owners manual clearly says 57ft lb-67 on the bolt and 46ft lb-54 on the nut, the service manual said 144ft lb - 166 then the actually put a . behind the value like 144.3, .3 are you kidding me too funny. Now the rear wheel axle and rim torque is correct owners vs the service manual, wheel nut 274.6Nm-318.7, rim bolt 274.6Nm-333.4 but they did not convert for us. I just averaged it to 225ft lbs. But I did not put a . anywhere!! But all kidding aside I am really impressed by this tractor, the documents not so much. CJ
 
   / DK 45 50 hour service #105  
Ken I could not agree more. Like the others have stated, the owners manual clearly says 57ft lb-67 on the bolt and 46ft lb-54 on the nut, the service manual said 144ft lb - 166 then the actually put a . behind the value like 144.3, .3 are you kidding me too funny. Now the rear wheel axle and rim torque is correct vs the service manual, wheel nut 274.6Nm-318.7, rim bolt 274.6Nm-333.4 but they did not convert for us. I just averaged it to 225ft lbs. But I did not put a . anywhere!! But all kidding aside I am really impressed by this tractor, the documents not so much. CJ

Best explanation for the inconsistency: The poor Kioti technical editor was too busy copying stuff from the Kubota service manual and got confused.:laughing:

About 6 or 7 years ago Kioti actually contracted a TBN member whose sole qualification was being the owner of a CK20 to rewrite the owner's manual (at that time) from Korenglish into standard English. It is a wonder that anything in those early manuals was correct.
 
   / DK 45 50 hour service #106  
I think I will follow my old Kubota manual, for Wheel Torque, it seems about right, and besides they seem to have more on the ball about editing manuals. I guess I did not know what I was getting into when I contributed to the wheel nut torque thing..:eek::eek:

James K0UA
 
   / DK 45 50 hour service #107  
And that answer gentleman is a total POS non answer from Kioti Korporate with no supporting data and at least one seemingly ridiculous and unsubstantiated statement. If "very fine particles" "may or may not be captured by the filter" are an issue then why the heck don't they use a better filter? What damage is done by those hypothetical particles in the first fifty hours? As others have noted, crap in hydraulic fluid does damage real quickly and the appropriate way to deal with such a risk would be at the engineering and manufacturing stage, not at some vague 50 hour service point.

Kioti makes great tractors but the BS they distribute in poorly edited manuals and the fictions that their PR and customer service people like to throw out are evidence that they have just not yet reached the big leagues at least in the US operation.

The appropriate statement from Kioti on the 50 hour hydraulic oil change should reason something like this:

"Thank you for your inquiry regarding our confusing recommendation for a 50hr hydraulic oil change. We apologize as the confusion is clearly our fault. Frankly we don't know where that recommendation comes from as we have absolutely zero data on the matter. However, as some previous technical editor failed to bring these sorts of inconsistencies to our attention, and as my main job is to cover Kioti's *****, I will endorse the most rigid and uber conservative possible recommendation despite the utter lack of empiric evidence to back me up. Honestly though, we do not have any data to support our recommendation and the company does not feel it is worth assigning an engineer to look carefully into the matter or even to critically compare our own recommendation to that of major competitors. I would have called the engineer myself but I don't speak Korean so instead we looked at Kubota's website and see that they recommend changing the hydraulic oil at 50 hours. Since we respect Kubota's choice in paint color we decided to make a similar recommendation. We chose to completely ignore that John Deere does not even recommend an initial 50 hour service and doesn't recommend the first hydraulic filter and hydraulic oil change until 400 hours. Go figure! Not worth our time to understand what JD seems to know about tractor longevity and besides we don't trust their judgment on service matters due to their weird aesthetics on paint color. Besides, by recommending extra work we will make a bit more money for our dealers as many of you check writing slobs will be scared of touching hydraulic filters and that is the least we can do for the poor dealers who we force to jump through all sorts of equally stupid hoops.

Thank you for your inquiry to Kioti where the customer always comes first and we never bullsheet them.

Somewhat sincerely,
Your Kioti customer service rep "

The bottom line is that Kioti has drawn an arbitrary line in the sand and will now defend it with your your money and warranty rights. It is clear evidence that Kioti USA at the highest level is simply a marketing company with close to zero engineering capability. Presumably Daedong has good engineers as they produce a fine product but those engineers are somewhere in Korea and have not been tasked by management to address issues such as this. When Kioti finally matures to the point that good engineers write evidence based maintenance guidelines supported by data, Kioti will have reached top tier status along with Kubota and JD. Until then we will just need to follow the dictates of some technical editor who didn't bother to notice inconsistencies or lack of evidence for maintenance recommendations. If you don't like following the arbitrary Kioti recommendations then it would make most sense to see what JD and Kubota recommend on their similar machinery and follow those recommendations. Unfortunately in this instance that doesn't resolve the problem. It does point out however that Kioti basically just apes Kubota's service recommendations. I know this will be a shock to some folks who like to think of Kioti as an independent and leading tractor manufacturer. Apparently tractor paint color is more important than anything else in determining maintenance schedules.:(

You should apply for a customer relations manager job at Kioti:laughing:
I do agree with you for the most part, but maybe they have had an issue with debris clogging a filter before 400hrs? or enough blockage that it causes the filters to go into bypass mode for an extended period of time on cold starts?
I don't know which other tractors have our HST motor but maybe its Kanzaki that specifies the short initial filter and oil change?
I guess my whole 50hr service cost me ~$250 with my dealer charging reasonable amounts for the filters and buying the oils on sale, so I'm not too upset about it.
 
   / DK 45 50 hour service #108  
And that answer gentleman is a total POS non answer from Kioti Korporate with no supporting data and at least one seemingly ridiculous and unsubstantiated statement...
.
.
.
(

My goal in contributing to the discussion is not to say what is right or wrong, simply to clarify what Kioti's position is. I guess it wouldn't really matter to me what they said in the maintenance schedule, I'll follow it to protect my warranty, especially when my dealer is following the same maintenance regime.

I agree with a lot of what you say, but in the end, it's the white collars, not the engineers that make the decision on whether or not to accept or deny your $3000 warranty claim, something I've already had to deal with. I will also say, that first hand experience tells me there's metal shavings that come out when the oil is changed.

After the warranty period is over, you assume the risk, so it's fair to make your own interpretations or modifications to the schedule.
 
   / DK 45 50 hour service #109  
I will also say, that first hand experience tells me there's metal shavings that come out when the oil is changed.

That is exactly what the magnetic plug is for. Everyone sees those filings and they are properly contained by the plug probably since hour number two or three of operation. If the metal filings were a real issue we should change hydraulic fluid and filters at about five or ten hours of operation.
 
   / DK 45 50 hour service #110  
I think I will follow my old Kubota manual, for Wheel Torque, it seems about right, and besides they seem to have more on the ball about editing manuals. I guess I did not know what I was getting into when I contributed to the wheel nut torque thing..:eek::eek:

James K0UA

:laughing::D I don't think any of us know what to think anymore. I will bet I can find at least 4 different recommendations for wheel torque between my service manual and owners manual! I will go with a standard torque chart per size and grade [if I can find it] of the bolt/nut. Your statement where you said it seems about right is key for someone with experience with this stuff. Good call.
CJ
 

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