doing the best with a low budget driveway

[tastyratz]

So I noticed quite a few posts here with creative driveway suggestions and ideas by members and I wanted to see what people thought.

I am a homeowner in New England who purchased a house with a 20x100 sq ft poor drainage driveway downsloped from the street. When we got there it was mostly sand and river rock so we had someone come in and put down/grade a few inches of "manpack" (crush and run - stone dust and gravel mix)

He also just graded it with a dozer and did nothing to compact it. When I got home that day I drove my car back and forth over the driveway for 30 min to compact but that's not stood the test of time as there are already ruts and low spots where we park.

Over the winter I really had an issue with no being able to scrape the drive with the snowblower and creating a hazardous situation for safety by having a persistent season long 2 inch block of ice for a driveway. I need something I can drag without ripping up or launching rocks on the lawn.

Tearing it all up to put a solid base and pave is way out of our price league and probably north of 10-13k+ in our area. I just signed up for 30 years of being broke. For now I need to creatively solve issues and do the best I can with minimal cost.

Several issues here:
Driveway has poor drainage and gets lots of street runoff.
Compacted where cars typically parked making ruts
Snow and ice removal issues in winter

1. I am looking at poly pavement. Several members said they were going to use it/have used it/etc but never posted about it again. What is the expected longevity of this? Would my choice of aggregate be ideal? I need a hard scrape-able surface. Would i be better to put down a top layer of pure stone dust to bind? Better suggestions?

2. I would love a way to get a darker color to help melt snow in the winter. Ideas for cheap surface additives that will keep color? Maybe some sort of ash?

3. To improve drainage I am thinking of digging drain channel along the sides of the drive, and the front/back to redirect water runoff. Thoughts on plastic drain pipe from home depot cut in half and filled with course aggregate? Best choice of fill? Thinking more rounded stone would leave more voids for water to travel. One of the channels would be driven over every day by the cars and the other every time we go into the garage.

4. would true coal tar sealcoat act as a binder when not on asphalt if I coated a gravel driveway? good or bad idea?

5. Would going over the whole thing with a street roller be worth it? Would that compact me enough to make a difference and really help or should I not bother at this point? I can rent a vibrating plate compacter from home depot but that's obviously not got the same weight. how do they compare?

I am Open to other cheap suggestions and creative ideas. I thought of shingle tabs or reclaimed asphalt... but I am a few years too late to that market - with oil prices skyrocketing reclaimed gets gobbled up fast at outrageous prices.

 

[forgeblast]

Can you post some pics, so we can see the issues. Sometimes a second/third etc set of eyes is helpful.

 

[JCB]

tasty,

You're not gonna like this answer, go with asphalt. Being on a downslope and wanting to scrape away ice, asphalt pavement is just about the cheapest option that meets your needs.

You should be able to get a paving quote for around $2 a square foot, and it should last 10, 20 or 30 years. Once you start messing with additives and seal coats on existing you're looking around $0.50 a square foot for a surface that really won't handle any sort of down pressure and won't really have any durability.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by poly pavement. I assume you mean a polymer modified asphalt pavement. Nothing special there, you can blend additives with asphalt to tweak some of the pavement properties. They usually help, but they also start adding nickels and dimes to the square foot prices.

You're drain tile cut in half will get filled with dirt, silt and other fines and soon be no different than the adjacent driveway.

Hope someone else has a better idea for you.

Joe

 

[Egon]

A picture would be nice.

As for solving the problems at low cost it may be difficult.

Don't waste money on any spray ons or that sort of thing as it probably will not work.

The first step is to establish a proper drainage.

Then the base has to be properly prepared. This means excavated with organic material removed, layed back down in shallow lifts and properly packed. Car tires are not packers nor are truck tires. The final surface has to have drainage however that is achieved.

Next comes crushed granular material of some sort. This also has to be laid out and properly packed. This could be considered finished if the surface grade all drains.

Then comes the final coat be it concrete. asphalt or paving blocks.

So it's not cheap to do it properly. Any other method may work short term but will fail and waste your dollars.

One of your best winter options might be lots of salt and sand to eliminate the skating rink.:thumbsup:

 

[tastyratz]

Also had another thought I was reading online of people who made "soil cement" just mixing in portland cement. Thoughts of adding in 6% or so in the mix to help stabilize this a bit? if I did it would add about $100 in materials + cost of stone dust. Would I be better off not bothering with the polypavement (probably 5-600 for the polypavement) and just mixing in double the portland?

( for those unaware polypavement is a soil solidifier http://www.polypavement.com/more_info.php )

Wear Surface: PolyPavement is a liquid soil solidifier. It is not merely a soil stabilizer. PolyPavement converts ordinary dirt into a rock-solid wear surface that rivals asphalt and concrete. Though a PolyPavement wear surface is not as strong as concrete, it is several times stronger than asphalt. In fact, a properly installed PolyPavement natural soil wear surface is tough enough to actually “burn rubber” when tires spin during fast starts by aggressively driven vehicles. This capability puts PolyPavement in a class of its own. Other water-based polymer soil stabilizers are primarily used for dust control. They cannot be used to make a permanent roadway wear surface.And the many soil stabilization polymers, enzymes and other materials that are used successfully in road construction, are only used to strengthen or stabilize the road base and/or the road sub-grade but they are not capable of producing a rock-solid roadway wear surface.

Brainstorming... if this might not work well what about topcoating portland and using a roller to pack it down/force it in with the gravel just to stiffen it up?

I don't have a lot of really good usable pictures up but I have 2 online. These are both shots before we refreshed the driveway which had growth at the edges.

This one is from the side of the garage looking at the street. Might be hard to tell the steepness of the driveway - but its steep.

And another I captured from a birds eye view on bing making notes:

Red: mentioned drainage notes/changes, dotted is driven over.
blue: what's there.
Street run off to driveway drainage channel would be directed on the other side of a built up mound with bushes avoiding the driveway altogether and ending up in the woods on the other side of the property.
Other drainage would run to a stream in the woods next to the house (diverting around a shed there now I didn't mark)

Garage is raised maybe 3 inches from driveway and has a poured concrete apron. Drain channel also ensures if I topcoat water has a place to go instead of all in the garage.

As much as I know asphalt is the best option for what I need, It is just a luxury not in the cards for a long time. What I am hoping for is maybe something in the range of 50% result for 10% cost. A way to make a solid surface that might only last 5 years but cost $1000 every 5 to refresh till I can afford otherwise - a diy middle ground option. **** $1000 every 5 is cheaper than 12,000 every 15 even in the long run.

Plus when I do pave I want to do it RIGHT. I am in a VERY volatile area and everyone's driveway near me was done at different times and is falling completely apart with frost heaves. The cost to REALLY put down a good strong base is a lot more than a 2" binder coat...

I salt and sand but the sand compromises the driveway with additional material (who wants a sand driveway?), and with how wide it is it just melts snow/ice which permeates into the gravel a few feet over sitting and probably eventually making for heaves. It doesn't like to melt and run off. I can fit 4 cars side by side. I know pitch isn't good enough but that's a dillema without getting runoff in the garage.

This would be expected to fail eventually, I have no delusion of a permanent solution. Nothing is up here.

 

[beenthere]

............................
Several issues here:
Driveway has poor drainage and gets lots of street runoff.
Get the street run-off re-directed right away. I'd put a serious crown down the center so any water runs to the side right away....not down towards your garage

1. I am looking at poly pavement. .........Would i be better to put down a top layer of pure stone dust to bind?
Yes, in my opinion, the stone dust (if it will pack) to form the crown would be a good way to go. If your stone dust is packable like our limestone fines, which packs very well.

2. I would love a way to get a darker color to help melt snow in the winter. Ideas for cheap surface additives that will keep color?
Darker color can come from re-cycled asphalt, which around here costs about the same as crushed limestone gravel. And it will pack and work well to shed water if there is crown.

3. To improve drainage
A french drain in front of the garage door would probably keep the water out of the garage, if the crown in the drive allows any water to get that far.

4. I wouldn't try to seal-coat as that is just tossing away money, IMO.

5. Would going over the whole thing with a street roller be worth it?
A roller will not do much for you. Car tire compaction worked well for me (for 30+ years) if done immediately after the gravel was mixed, graded, and spread. Cheapest and I think the best alternative.

.......

So, bottom line, I would suggest getting the drainage built in to the drive with crown so the water runs to the side and away....not down the drive from the road. That is as cheap as some of the thoughts you were coming up with.

 

[MarkV]

In your first post you mentioned having a "few" inches of gravel installed. Around here less than 6" of crusher run doesn't do much. Adding some gravel may be the cheapest way to raise the grade and when you can pave it will be an excellent base. I do agree that you have to get the water flowing a different way for anything but paving to work well.

MarkV

 

[brin]

Also had another thought I was reading online of people who made "soil cement" just mixing in portland cement. Thoughts of adding in 6% or so in the mix to help stabilize this a bit? if I did it would add about $100 in materials + cost of stone dust. Would I be better off not bothering with the polypavement (probably 5-600 for the polypavement) and just mixing in double the portland?

( for those unaware polypavement is a soil solidifier PolyPavement: Natural Soil Pavement - Liquid Soil Solidifier )


Brainstorming... if this might not work well what about topcoating portland and using a roller to pack it down/force it in with the gravel just to stiffen it up?

I don't have a lot of really good usable pictures up but I have 2 online. These are both shots before we refreshed the driveway which had growth at the edges.

This one is from the side of the garage looking at the street. Might be hard to tell the steepness of the driveway - but its steep.

And another I captured from a birds eye view on bing making notes:

Red: mentioned drainage notes/changes, dotted is driven over.
blue: what's there.
Street run off to driveway drainage channel would be directed on the other side of a built up mound with bushes avoiding the driveway altogether and ending up in the woods on the other side of the property.
Other drainage would run to a stream in the woods next to the house (diverting around a shed there now I didn't mark)

Garage is raised maybe 3 inches from driveway and has a poured concrete apron. Drain channel also ensures if I topcoat water has a place to go instead of all in the garage.

As much as I know asphalt is the best option for what I need, It is just a luxury not in the cards for a long time. What I am hoping for is maybe something in the range of 50% result for 10% cost. A way to make a solid surface that might only last 5 years but cost $1000 every 5 to refresh till I can afford otherwise - a diy middle ground option. **** $1000 every 5 is cheaper than 12,000 every 15 even in the long run.

Plus when I do pave I want to do it RIGHT. I am in a VERY volatile area and everyone's driveway near me was done at different times and is falling completely apart with frost heaves. The cost to REALLY put down a good strong base is a lot more than a 2" binder coat...

I salt and sand but the sand compromises the driveway with additional material (who wants a sand driveway?), and with how wide it is it just melts snow/ice which permeates into the gravel a few feet over sitting and probably eventually making for heaves. It doesn't like to melt and run off. I can fit 4 cars side by side. I know pitch isn't good enough but that's a dillema without getting runoff in the garage.

This would be expected to fail eventually, I have no delusion of a permanent solution. Nothing is up here.

If you got your gravel real smooth and then applied portland cement and watered it in real good it would sure be worth a try...I have a neighbor that did that and it set up like a concrete drive..

 

[dave1949]

Welcome to TBN!

Looking at your overhead pic: standing on the road and facing the garage, I would make a drainage swale on the right side of the driveway and direct the water into the woods towards the stream.

The swale should be at it deepest/lowest point at least 3 or 4 car lengths out from your overhead door, then continue the swale to the garage rising up from that low point. The swale should be gentle enough to be mowable in summer.

Then do what you can to put a crown on the driveway keeping the crown more to the left side of the driveway farthest from the swale.

Getting your drainage setup is required no matter what you do later and will help right away. If you get the drainage working well, you will have a much better idea about what is needed. I wouldn't use plastic pipe along a driveway, the frost will work it up over time.

Aside from pavement, there is no cure for Spring 'mud season' slop on the driveway. The air is warm enough to melt the top 1" or 2" of the drive but there is frost underneath preventing the water from seeping down through and away.

I wouldn't depend on roadside drainage, the town and state are usually 15 years behind in cleaning their drainages

Good luck.
Dave.

 

[MarkV]

It sounds like much of your water is coming from a public road. Have you considered calling the city/county engineer for see if they have any suggestions?

MarkV

 

[JCB]

What I am hoping for is maybe something in the range of 50% result for 10% cost.

You're not gonna like this post either, but the numbers you're hoping for are actually about reversed. You'll be more likely to get 10% result for 50% of the cost.

If we could build roads for 20% of the cost and get the same life...we'd be doing it. Standard practices here really are the most efficient.

You're on the right track with drainage. Unless you've got big trucks on your driveway, you don't need strength - you need to keep it dry. Passenger cars mean nothing. Passenger cars can drive on your lawn if it's dry and it'll hold up. If you can keep your driveway dry (i.e. drainage) you won't have to worry about frost heaves or ruts either.

You might get some satisfactory results mixing in some portland cement or other additive to the surface, but there is a reason it's not widely done. It can work well one time, but may not be satisfactory the next. Whatever you do, just be sure to run the numbers and make sure your not starting down the path to a 50/10 proposition.

 

[Egon]

You might get some satisfactory results mixing in some portland cement or other additive to the surface,

It'll look good till after the spring thaw! Then it's wasted money.

 

[crusty 1]

you can try class 6 or recycled but you must find out sooner or later that a gravel driveway is like a marriage,you,re never done smoothing out the bumps.Just a fact of lifeDave

 

[forgeblast]

you can try class 6 or recycled but you must find out sooner or later that a gravel driveway is like a marriage,you,re never done smoothing out the bumps.Just a fact of lifeDave

haha how true. I figure just about every couple of years i get more gravel for our driveway. I order 20 ton of modified they drop it i rake it and im good for another couple of years.
Crowning and controlling the water are your biggest concerns. I had a lot of ice problems before we put in some swales and diverted our gutters, not its very managable.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

I got asphalt millings from the road, and put on my driveway. It is now set up hard, and the snow really melted a lot faster this last winter because of it. All it cost was my time to spread it, I got the millings when the road in front of my house was being redone and I just had to ask. A friend of mine bought millings and had it put down and rolled, not as good as asphalt, but almost. But it starts with proper grading to start with. I did some minor regrading of my drive with my FEL before I put the millings down.

 

[CurlyDave]

As others have said: either pitch or crown the driveway to provide drainage.

I have been maintaining my 1000' x 20 foot gravel driveway for about 3 years now with my tractor and until we can afford asphalt, it is doing fine. Slope on mine is 15% for almost its entire length.

I would be thinking about learning to backdrag with the FEL and possibly getting a box blade.

If I had to, I would think about creating a swale crosswise in your driveway, so the last 20' or so into your garage is uphill. This is a fair amount of material to move, but I bet it could be done with a boxblade in about a weekend.

I think the drainage half-pipes you describe would be a waste of time & money. Make a real french drain with a piece of perf pipe at the bottom.

 

[crazyal]

Sounds like you're money limited, welcome to the group. If it was me I would put down some fabric and then get another couple of inches of crusher run. It's not the best but it'll get the job done. If you can afford it each year put down another couple of inches until you get 8 inches or so. I would make sure I didn't direct water into the garage. Once you have 8 inches you can then you can work the driveway with a back blade without getting into the fabric.

As for the winter I just sand. I have a large load of sand brought up in the fall (I have a lot more driveway to do, you may be able to get it free from the town). I fill up a couple of sheet rock buckets and use a gallon or gallon and a half size pail and swing it back and forth allowing just a little to come out of it and slowly I put down enough for traction.

If you have a little extra money you could rent a tractor with a front end loader (if you don't have one) and try to scrape away what you have now. Of course you'll need a place to put it once you remove it. Then you can put the fabric down.

 

[PILOON]

I got asphalt millings from the road, and put on my driveway. It is now set up hard, and the snow really melted a lot faster this last winter because of it. All it cost was my time to spread it, I got the millings when the road in front of my house was being redone and I just had to ask. A friend of mine bought millings and had it put down and rolled, not as good as asphalt, but almost. But it starts with proper grading to start with. I did some minor regrading of my drive with my FEL before I put the millings down.

Some years back I also went the 'millings' route.
Never regretted that system and have suggested it to many friends.
Our city also uses it to coat our gravel road, 'specially the hills.
Over time it re-binds and becomes new used asphalt. Works great!

Another newer inovation in road building is a geotextile fabric covered with crushed then pavement.
The textile prevents the subsoils from migrating to the surface and mixing with gravel.

Old carpeting can be used as a substitute for geotextile as most are synthetic based.

Cement (concrete) is not a good solution unless you use a wire mesh armature as it will chunk and break up. (tried it with a few yards of left over that I raked to about 3" coverage and forever regretted it)

My current 'best suggestion' based on various attempts is; geotextile and crushed recycle, naturally combined with good drainage and crowned center.

Around here crushed recycle is just slightly more than standard crushed run (often called 0-3/4")

 

[powerstroke444e]

I have seen several concrete driveways fail do to poor drainage. I would put french drains and use lots of fabric wraped pipe, I would also try to find recycled asphalt and roll the heck out of it once you have it smooth, no bigger than your drive is and only having cars on you should be able to do it for $3,000 in equipment rental and material.

1. $300-$500 in pipe
2. Trencher rental $250-$350
3. pgravel $160
4. Fabric $500
5. Roller rental $200
6. Millings?? in our area they run $10 per ton delivered min of 14 ton.

You should find a small contractor that would do all the work in about 1 day and charge 1,000-2,000 to do the work and you would not have to pay the rental or break a sweat and not cost you any more than doing it your self, but then again I live in midwest hope this helps.

 

[dmccarty]

ABC gravel in NC which I suspect is what others call crush and run. ABC is the gravel that is put down before concrete or asphalt.

I maintain 800ish feet of driveway and another 2500ish feet of gravel road. I built the driveway by putting down geotextile fabric and then ABC. I put down at best four inches of ABC over most of the driveway. The plan was to put down enough ABC to get through construction and then add another 4-6 inches. The driveway held up so well we spent the gravel money on other things in the house.

We had seven cement loads delivered for our floor plus whatever it took for the footers. I can't remember how many loads of gravel the build brought it but I would guess it was 8ish double axle truck loads. Plus the logging trucks.

Our driveway held up perfectly. The road was not bad either but it needed some work. The road last had gravel laid down in the early 80's and none since. Every 4-5 years I rip the road with the box blade and smooth it out again. Next time I will try to get more crown.

The problem with fabric is you have to be careful of hitting it with the tractor. Should not be a problem if you put down 6 or more inches.

I think you need a slight swale to redirect the water from the road along with fabric and gravel. Making the swale out of concrete might be a good idea. I have seen many a gravel driveway that ends/starts on a public road that gets torn up because the owner has to accelerated rapidly into traffic. Eventually they put down a concrete "launch ramp", deal with gravel fixings, or pot holes.

Later,
Dan