Driving myself crazy

[Bob_Skurka]

According to conversations with employees of John Deere in Moline, virtually every model of agriculture equipment made by JD uses Kukje parts. So, based on that, I would say they are a major supplier.

Sorry, but you are making some huge assumptions. A minor parts supplier is not a major supplier. It is fair to say that in the CUT category that Yanmar is a major supplier, since Yanmar makes the engines and other components for numerous models. But if, for example, a company makes the parking brake lock, or lower 3pt hitch arms for every model of JD tractor on the planet, it still is going to be a minor supplier in the grand scheme of things.

A Kukje made Branson tractor and a Yanmar made John Deere Cut are entirely different tractors. Not one part will match up. If you don't beleive it go look. While it is true that Kukje partners with Yanmar, they are entirely different companies. Same with John Deere.

Ditto

 

[possum_hollow]

What is your cost on a TYM 450 with Loader?

Thanks for the pricing info from your area. My quotes for the TC45 were somewhat higher, but let's say it is a 23,000$ tractor. I was also quoted 25,700$ for a Kubota 4330 (w/o ag tires, but better PTO performance). My local dealer is pricing the TYM 450, with ag tires, at 19,000$.

Which still points out the dillema for myself and so many other tractor buyers out there. Without using words like "huge", "minor", and even "liar", and other opinionated statements, I just would like to see some reasons why the big 3 commands pricing at 20% to 25% greater than comparable models.

Again, I'm not saying not to buy a TYM, but I'd be for damned sure I looked at all other possibilities first.

Also, as for the fact that Kubota was a import start up 20-30 years ago and look what happened to them. Well the same could be said for many other brands like Belarus. Where are they now? Kubota was the exception to the rule of a brand lasting as long as they have.

Exactly why I have done a tremendous amount of research, and asked for information on this forum. My research does not indicate, based on components, manufacturing quality, and performance that the price difference is justified. If that argument is true, then it becomes another one of infrastructure and support.

Your point about Kubota and Belarus is an excellent one. I do not feel that NH, Kubota, and possibly John Deere will suffer from catastrophic failure. And if they did, I still feel parts would be available for most of their equipment. But with the economic forecast, I would not count out the South Koreans nor even the Chinese for the long term, either. Many of the tractors assembled in South Korea have been around just as long or longer than Kubota, but they have not delved into serious NA importing until relatively recent times.

15 years ago (heck, even 5 years ago), I would not have considered purchasing anything other than a big 3 or a Massey. Now, 2 local dealers that have the same owners my Grandfather dealt with, are carrying South Korean tractors. I wonder why?

 

[roxynoodle]

I don't think you can compare Kubota and Belarus. Kubota has been making diesel engines for a very long time. I am not sure when they begin producing tractors, but engines, much longer time. They were also well established for the Japanese farming community before they branched out to US sales. I think there is a difference between a brand new company, and one that has expanded it's sales market. There was a brand new market here for CUTS 30 years ago and Kubota said ha, ha, we already make those for farming here! And they grabbed the opportunity.

 

[aesanders]

Who is comparing Belarus to Kubota. Both were imports from about the same period. However Kubota took hold and Belarus went away along with countless other companies. I'm comparing TYM and Branson to Belarus.
Belearus was sold in Europe well before they introduced them here and still do. You just do not see them over here anymore and getting parts is almost impossible. Here is a link to their site:
Minsk Tractor Works, Belarus Tractors (MTZ)

After reading it, it doesn't sound much different from TYM or Branson. Maybe TYM or Branson or any of the new imports will take hold and be around as long as Kubota has in the U.S. but chances are they will end up being like Belarus. A popular model for a few years and then you never hear from them again.

By the way, the pricing for the New Holland TC45A was not from my area but a national retailer that ships nationwide. I've seen better pricing on units from the Mid Atlantic where I use to live. Some of the best pricing I have heard about was from Texas, so I would assume Oklahoma would have decent prices.


Here are some pricing from Carver's Kubota listed here on TBN:

L 4330 HST, 43 hp, 4wd, deluxe tractor Reg $22,914 on sale today only $18,998.
L 4630 HST, 46 hp, 4wd, deluxe tractor Reg 23,940 on sale today only $19,499.

Now these are HST models which the TYM is a SYNC gear. NO loader included.

I'm not saying your not getting better pricing on a TYM, but when I have shopped I was always able to find a dealer for a major brand with good enough prices not to even consider a Korean start up. My old local Kioti dealer had better prices on his Kioti's than his Agco's (By about 2k per comparable model). But he was 2k higher on his AGCO's than the local Massey dealer had for the exact same tractor. Guess what, they didn't sell many AGCO's form this store, but the Massey dealer sold many. His Kioti prices seemed high to me. I could find many local tractors for comparable pricing. I just did not find the pricing advantage for Kioti to even consider it over a Kubota, JD, New Holland.

If your getting 5k difference for a TYM and you like the dealer buy it. I could never find that much difference when I shopped.

The only hesitant thing with TYM is who has one. I've never seen one anywhere outside a dealers lot. I can drive down my closest road and see John Deere's, Kubota's, New Hollands, and Masseys out the ying yang. I even see an occasioanl Mahindra and Kioti here and there, but I've never seen a TYM outside a dealers lot.

 

[coasterez]

It's true that you don't see many TYM's. But, it's also true that they haven't been around in the states for very long at all. The question isn't one of quality per se, but rather will they be here 10, 20, 30 years from now. If they are, then you'll see plenty around. Sales and distribution don't happen over night. They certainly look to have the pockets to be here, but do they have the stomach to weather the early, lean years when they might be selling these machines for very small profits (or even losses). I hope they are here because more options is good for everyone. But, I don't think there is room for more than a handful of players. I think some mergers and collapses (or withdrawals) are in the future. In the end though, if you get 15 years or more from your investiment without too many repair costs, you probably still do ok on your decision. As for me, I'm betting that way by purchasing a Kioti, and in the mean time the machine has already saved me over $8000 in just 6 months or so in contracting fees. Another couple of years, and several more chores latter, and she will have already paid for herself.

 

[machmeter62]

I believe, heard, and read where JD and Kubotas are manufactured in the US again, not all of them however, or does that mean assembly only? I don't know the demise of the Ford Tractors in this country either? I think they sold out, but why? Tractorwise, look at all the 9N's and 8N's, and many other models Ford built, before Japan started building the 1000 series? I'm sure it was something related to production costs and competiton, and maybe quality control? Reliability, is at the top of my list, with anything that has an engine and wheels; I got an early education with a 52' MG-TD. Every time I drove it, it seemed like something new would fail, and you couldn't give me anything electrical, that was manufactured by LUCAS!!!!??

 

[aesanders]

Ford tracotrs are still alive and well. Just called New Hollands now. In the eighties ford purchased New Holland. New Holland was well noted for their their balers and swathers alongwith other crop machines like combines. During this time ,Ford was buying many companies like Cummins etc. Ford has sold off most of these over the years including their entire AG line. The Ford tractors were rebadged as New Hollands, but the blood line still exists. New Holland and Case later merged to form one of the top 3 Agriulture manufacturing companies.

Same goes for Allis Chalmers, (although they did go bankrupt.) After Allis Chalmers went bankrupt, they were purchased by the Dutch engine manufacturer Duetz. Their olive green machine never did well and the company struggled and then the ag section was sold off to the newly found AGCO (Allis Gleaner Company). AGCO later purchased Massey Fergusen and Challenger among many other makes like Hesston and is now among the top 3 agriculture manufacturers.

As for John Deere and Kubota being manufactured again in the US. Well John Deere has a large amount of manufacturing done on the U.S. and always has. They also have manufacturing done all over the world. The 4000 series tractors use to be mainly built by Yanmar but have enough U.S manufactuing done now that they are labeled "Made in the US". My 2000 series is still mostly Yanmar. My attachments for it are mostly US origin like the box blade and loader. Most of JD's very large Ag equipment is U.S made. Some of their midline tractors are made in India.

Kubota's was never a U.S manufacturer. They are made primarily in Japan, although they do a small bit in the US. They do have a large plant where assembly is done on a selection of their machines and I do believe some of their attachments are also US origin.

 

[Champy]

During this time ,Ford was buying many companies like Cummins etc. Ford has sold off most of these over the years including their entire AG line.

I don't believe that Ford ever bought and sold Cummins Engine Company itself, but back in the early 80's Ford did buy a substantial amount of Cummins stock to facilitate a partnership to develop a new inline 5 cylinder engine for their pickups...a deal that went south due to the inline 6 engine with the Dodge Ram that got launched..... Cummins has been an independent diesel engine manufacturer for almost 90 yrs.......and may be the last one around.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

It's true that you don't see many TYM's. But, it's also true that they haven't been around in the states for very long at all. The question isn't one of quality per se, but rather . . .

Well I would tend to disagree with you on that. I think there is a MAJOR question about quality with many of the minor brands. And we can all define quality in many different ways so let me suggest that quality can be measured by engine reliability, by general reliability, by design features, by comfort, by ergonomics, by durability and design of simple things like switches and seats, etc. And if the tractor proves to be a true quality tractor then it is reasonable to assume that it will be around in 10, 20 and 30 years.

I complain about design all the time, so let me use that as just ONE example of quality. Some brands mount their loader control so that you cannot exit the right side of the tractor. Some brands use rubber hose instead of the more expensive and more durable rigid pipe to run hydraulic lines on their loaders. Some brands have their FEL connections and hoses rising straight up above the loader/hood level and leaves them exposed to being snagged by tree branches. Some brands have rear remote controls that are actually under your leg so you have to lean forward and move your leg while trying to look over your shoulder behind you while you adjust your implement!?! Put all those "features" on one tractor and you are sure to have an ergonomic nightmare, even if the tractor proves to be generally reliable it may not be the safest or easiest tractor to use.

Now a novice buyer may not notice some of those things, but I often see several of those "features" on minor brands, and only occasionally see 1 of those on major brands.

I respectfully disagree with you and think some of the discussion can center on some aspects of quality, per se!

 

[OrangeGuy]

Aesanders,

Your post contains a number of errors.
1) New Holland purchased the farm equipment division of Ford, not the other way around. Ford licensed their name for 5 years to NH. To the best of my recollection, NH did not make swathers. If they did, they were not "noted" for it.
2) K.H. Deutz, a German tractor and engine manufacturer, purchased the farm equipment assets of Allis Chalmers. However, I agree they mismanaged the company.
3) JD historically (last 30 years) manufactured/purchased their under 100 HP tractors overseas. Utility tractors from Manheim, Germany and CUTs from Yanmar. They, like Kubota, are are doing some assembly work in the US now.
4) Almost all of Kubota accessories like FELs, mowers, snowblowers, etc are manufactured in the US.

OrangeGuy

 

[NoMo]

Possum, what part of the state are you in?

Maybe we can help you find a good dealer with the product you want.

 

[possum_hollow]

I am south of Locust Grove. We have two very fine dealers in the area. Quanties in Locust Grove has been around a long time, and my family has done business there since the 70's. He is carrying the TYM, and some other brands I haven't much interest in. He is also a MF dealer. Also, in Tahlequah, Adrian Farm Supply. I have not personally done business there, but they have a good reputation and have been around a long time. I spoke with Bob at Adrian's and got a quote on a Branson 4720. I also have had some quotes on Mahindra from Ft. Gibson, Kubota from C&D, and Montana from Springdale. Thanks for the interest.

 

[coasterez]

Bob,

Maybe I wasn't clear. My point was that it's not just about machine quality. Machine quality is, of course, very important - it's a must. A tractor might be around 30 years (and none of us know one way or the other if the TYM's quality would have it last that long), but the company and support for that machine might not. Here too, for TYM we don't know one way or the other. But, BOTH the tractor and the company have to be around in order for a brand/make to be deemed "successful", in my mind. It does me little good to buy a machine if I can't get parts or service for it, no matter how good the quality is. Eventually I will need parts, and probably service too. That is my point. I'd be surprised if you didn't agree with this.

But, as I said before, from my perspective, if I get 15 years or more of good use, without too many repairs, then I still did ok with the brand/model even if the company has long since gone by the wayside and others did not do so well with the same machine. I may not have done as well had the company/model developed the reputation that Kubota has been able to, but I still say I did ok. I probably got my money's worth, at the very least. Me doing "ok" and a brand/model being "successful" aren't necessarily the same thing. It's a calculated risk to buy the unproven, for sure. But, if you're lucky, and you pick the right "off" brand it could be worth it.

So, what quality issues to you have with this TYM? What quality issues make it worse than similar machines from the big three? That's the brand/model I was speaking of with my "per se" comment, not "off" brands in general. I'm sorry if this wasn't clear. With regard to this TYM model, I honestly don't know. I did like the K2's a lot. But, was less impressed with a 330 hst that I tested. Though, my opinion of the 330 is mostly based on cosmics (except for the weak power steering), and it was an older left over model that had clearly been out in the weather awhile.

Though, A K2 might be in my future a few years down the road . First, I need to take care of the big tasks I have to do with my bigger machine, and then wait and see how TYM and their machines are doing around the country. If they look to be doing well, I just might sell my tractors and buy one (or maybe it'll just be a small frame Big 3). Anyway, the more choices the better.

I understand what you are saying about quality. Yet, some quality things are subjective. And it could be argued, base on your definition of quality (which I agree with), that all brands have quality issues - some more than others, depending on who you ask. And when subjectivity comes into play, some of these quality issues may not matter to certain users. Furthermore, many "quality" issues do not affect the reliability and longevity of the machine. They might affect how many buy them because they don't "like" the design, and this could certainly affect the viability of a brand/model and ones ability to get parts and service due to the number of machines out there. I guess what I'm saying is quality is not always black and white. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. The unfortunate fact is, unless it's just horribly bad, it takes several years of history to really flush out whether a model/company is reliable and viable, regardless of one's perception of its quality. Many people just prefer to stay with the tried and true and not take the chance. And there is certainly nothing wrong with that.

....Now be easy on me.

Tom

 

[aesanders]

Aesanders,

Your post contains a number of errors.
1) New Holland purchased the farm equipment division of Ford, not the other way around. Ford licensed their name for 5 years to NH. To the best of my recollection, NH did not make swathers. If they did, they were not "noted" for it.
2) K.H. Deutz, a German tractor and engine manufacturer, purchased the farm equipment assets of Allis Chalmers. However, I agree they mismanaged the company.
3) JD historically (last 30 years) manufactured/purchased their under 100 HP tractors overseas. Utility tractors from Manheim, Germany and CUTs from Yanmar. They, like Kubota, are are doing some assembly work in the US now.
4) Almost all of Kubota accessories like FELs, mowers, snowblowers, etc are manufactured in the US.

OrangeGuy

1) Ford did purchase Sperry-New Holland. Then sold it to fiat. They lisenced the name to New Holland after the sale so it would make an easier transaction for loyal Ford owners.

See link provided:
New Holland Ag - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Swathers, combines and balers were and still are one of New Hollands major sellers. If these are not what New Holland is noted for then what is?

When I think of New Holland, all I think of are the yellow and red haying equipment. Swathers and balers. Not the Blue tractors everyone talks about today.... Those are still Fords in my mind.

Another link:
New Holland

2) This is what I said. How is this an error?

History of Duetz: Deutz-Fahr history

3) Not entirely true. Certain tractor like te 4000 series have shifted back to the us for manufacturing. John Deere has many manufacturing facilities in the U.S. All their lawn tractors. Most of their heavy machinery such as combines etc are all made in the us. Yes many lines are manufactured overseas, but many are made in the U.S. and this is axactly what I said. Where are the errors?

4) Ditto on what I said.



Ooooh. Just found another link expaining what a swather is for those not in the now. Even has the New Holland logo on it:

Hay Mowers

 

[NoMo]

Locust is a nice area! I always meant to stop by Quantie on my way to see relatives in the Oaks/Rocky Ford/Little Kansas area but never did.

Don't forget about the Kubota dealer that's been in Claremore for years. And there's also a dealer up in Jay that you should check out.

The big Deere & NH dealers in Tulsa don't seem interested in us "little guys". Their prices were always the highest too. If looking in the Tulsa area, I recommend Jernigan's for Deere and Jensen up in Bartlesville for New Holland.

Getting a little further away... there's a nice Montana dealer in Dewey that I've met a few times at the Farm show. And of course, Dan with Creek County Equipment is a great dealer who frequents this site. Dan sells TYM, Montana, Branson and a few other brands. Kind of a long drive for you, but he might make it worthwhile.

On a side note that I'm sure only a few of us (including Possum) will care about...
My avatar is a picture taken at Dripping Springs State Park just this side of Siloam.

 

[possum_hollow]

Dripping Springs is one beautiful place.....Anyway, back to tractors. I pulled the trigger yesterday and bought one. After listening to my steer roping friends, I checked out Mike Cooper's Mahindras over in Ft. Gibson. Due to a lack of objectivity (I work for a company that has moved it's R+D and Software to India), I had not considered this tractor. When I saw it, it was obvious that the thing was tank compared to any other in the class of tractor I was looking for. Mike was very flexible and cooperative, and many people in my area have bought from him and are happy. There are a total of 5 Mahindra dealers within 60 miles, so I don't think they are going away soon.

 

[NoMo]

Congrats on the new tractor!

I liked the Mahindras too. Which one did you get?

 

[possum_hollow]

I got the 4530, FEL, rear hydralics and ag tires. I am leaving Monday and won't be back until Friday, when it is delivered. Can't wait to get out on it!

 

[Bill_Miller]

I'm running a Yanmar, built in the 70s. But parts are very available at Hoye Tractor. And very reasonably priced. BTW, Yanmar has built most small JD tractors for many years. They also dominate the sailboat engine market and have for decades. I have only put 600 hours on my YM1700 in the last five years, but so far nothing but routine maintenance.

It seems the only U.S. built diesel engines are in 18 wheelers? Does any tractor come with a U.S. diesel????? I think JD builds their own large engines???

Just be sure you have a good dealer that has been in business for at least ten years. And good experienced mechanics. I always go back and talk to the mechanics, they can tell you honestly which tractor is best. And which ones to avoid.