Electric Cars: Chev Bolt seems to be the first practical one.

[houstonscott]

Even if we had the most technically advanced, longest ranged electric vehicle available we would still need an ICE powered vehicle to back it up. An automobile is a tool. Tools have a purpose. An electric auto would be the perfect tool for somebody who lives in a large urban area and seldom travels more that 30-40 miles per day. I would love to have one for running the 6 miles to the grocery and hardware stores. The Bolt would make it on one of our Saturday trips to F-I-L's home (15 mile), youngest daughter's home (15 more miles), oldest daughter's home (20 more miles), Mom's home (20 more miles). Then back home to charge overnight. BUT! Get home and get a phone call that F-I-L has fallen and needs to be taken to nearest medical center and we must go to his home and pick up clothes, etc. and then drive 130+ miles to Nashville and we would be nearly out of juice. As I said above, even if we had the most technically advanced, longest ranged electric vehicle available we would still need an ICE powered vehicle to back it up. RSKY

I think it's interesting all the penny counting in making a case for an electric. Truth is its niche is so narrow it is impractical for just about everyone. What that means in real world from your example is an electric battery car is more likely a second or third car or vehicle in your stable, which means its efficiency is not anything more than a interesting subject at a party. SUV's are popular for a reason, vehicles are expensive and if your front line go to vehicle in your stable has to do many duties, hybrid and electrics are out straightaway. In that context they are very inefficient. You got to want one bad or just be interested like hobby in electrics to talk yourself in to the major shortcomings of a battery car. Most people are never going to restrict their freedom to travel enough to own one.

 

[IslandTractor]

I think it's just a sarcastic way of saying there not going to be any battery breakthroughs. It's a very well understood chemistry and technology, deal with it.... Wanting something to be true doesn't make it true.

That's rather like saying that Mr Diesel created the first diesel engine and that's all you get. The history of technology is full of examples where a new idea seems useful but becomes much more useful and effective as engineers and manufacturers refine the product. Not possible to say with confidence today what developments will come tomorrow. In the past ten years the capacity of lithium AA batteries has about doubled and is predicted to double again in the next decade. I have no idea what further efficiency is possible anymore than Mr Diesel could understand that someday his engine concept would produce 100hp per liter. What is clear is that if the energy density of lithium battery packs doubles, then vehicle range also doubles. We can expect each new generation of electric vehicle to incrementally increase range. For my purposes, so long as a backup ICE is available, 30-40 mile range is just fine. The Volt already achieves that. Future CMax and Prius models will too. Those cars don't need to replace pickup trucks to be a marketing success so manufacturers will continue to push the envelope on electrics just as Mr Diesel's successors did with his concept.

 

[houstonscott]

That's rather like saying that Mr Diesel created the first diesel engine and that's all you get. The history of technology is full of examples where a new idea seems useful but becomes much more useful and effective as engineers and manufacturers refine the product. Not possible to say with confidence today what developments will come tomorrow. In the past ten years the capacity of lithium AA batteries has about doubled and is predicted to double again in the next decade. I have no idea what further efficiency is possible anymore than Mr Diesel could understand that someday his engine concept would produce 100hp per liter. What is clear is that if the energy density of lithium battery packs doubles, then vehicle range also doubles. We can expect each new generation of electric vehicle to incrementally increase range. For my purposes, so long as a backup ICE is available, 30-40 mile range is just fine. The Volt already achieves that. Future CMax and Prius models will too. Those cars don't need to replace pickup trucks to be a marketing success so manufacturers will continue to push the envelope on electrics just as Mr Diesel's successors did with his concept.

Why wait for an electric to double its range in the next twenty years, an ice does it now, and I don't have to plug it in and wait to recharge it, range is only one of the major short comings. For example, where do you recharge at night if your one of millions of apartment renters who park in lot at night, suppose you live in one of those Boston yesteryear neighborhoods, with one narrow drive were one car is in the driveway and ones on the street. Simple hassles, go move your car so I can charge up.... It's not a real life car, it's stimulating for some who can't build it in his garage project, and is interested in electric power, nothing more. If you really want to go somewhere battery cars are not even a consideration.

 

[IslandTractor]

Why wait for an electric to double its range in the next twenty years, an ice does it now, and I don't have to plug it in and wait to recharge it, range is only one of the major short comings. For example, where do you recharge at night if your one of millions of apartment renters who park in lot at night, suppose you live in one of those Boston yesteryear neighborhoods, with one narrow drive were one car is in the driveway and ones on the street. Simple hassles, go move your car so I can charge up.... It's not a real life car, it's simulation for some who can't build it in his garage project.

Hate to say it but my electric/hybrid can travel further on a tank of gas and full battery than your diesel sedan can. I don't need to wait. The doubling of range is only relevant to the battery powered portion of the range. The car seamlessly switches from battery to ICE so I could travel over 500 miles without stopping if I wore diapers. For practical purposes the electric hybrids are two cars in one. Electric for around town (20-40 miles) and then hybrid for longer distances.

And, we'll see double that range in similar sized vehicles in just 10 years, not 20. How long did it take engineers to squeeze 100hp/l out of a diesel? Over a hundred years I believe.

 

[California]

Meanwhile back at the ranch ...

I bought a hanging patio chair for my wife. On the way home I stopped to look at a Bolt again and compare its cargo space to my Subaru.

Bolt cargo space. Note the anchor (bronze color) that the folding seatback locks to.



For comparison: Subaru Outback. (version 1, thru '99). Note how much more cargo space there is measured from its folding seat anchor, back to its tailgate. Enough space to load this bulky chair entirely behind that point.



After I got home on a hunch I turned the hanging chair and pushed it forward. Yep, I could have carried a second chair at the same time.



Finished project. Hauling stuff like this is essential for me.
The Bolt looks great but doesn't quite match my application. Looks like I'll run the Subaru a few more years. Cars don't rust here and at 120k miles I don't see any 'old car' issues ... yet.

 

[vvanders]

Even if we had the most technically advanced, longest ranged electric vehicle available we would still need an ICE powered vehicle to back it up.

An automobile is a tool. Tools have a purpose. An electric auto would be the perfect tool for somebody who lives in a large urban area and seldom travels more that 30-40 miles per day. I would love to have one for running the 6 miles to the grocery and hardware stores. The Bolt would make it on one of our Saturday trips to F-I-L's home (15 mile), youngest daughter's home (15 more miles), oldest daughter's home (20 more miles), Mom's home (20 more miles). Then back home to charge overnight.

BUT!

Get home and get a phone call that F-I-L has fallen and needs to be taken to nearest medical center and we must go to his home and pick up clothes, etc. and then drive 130+ miles to Nashville and we would be nearly out of juice. As I said above, even if we had the most technically advanced, longest ranged electric vehicle available we would still need an ICE powered vehicle to back it up.

RSKY

Don't be so sure, I'm ~15 miles from the nearest town(if you don't count the mart down the street), regularly drive ~100mi round-trip into Portland and still have ~60% battery not counting the DCFC stations around. We've had our S85D for ~2.5 years now and there's yet to be a case where we didn't have enough charge to get where we had to go.

 

[RSKY]

The point I am trying to make is that the charge time for an electric is several hours long. For an ICE or hybrid the recharge time is how long it takes to fill the tank. A pure electric would for most people be a second or third vehicle to save wear on the main driver. The example I stated above has happened to us except the trip to the medical center was four hours one morning with a four hour drive home that afternoon. An electric could NOT have made the trip there and back with out an overnight charge. I would love to have one to drive the short distance stop and go driving that kills the gas mileage on any ICE vehicle. But I cannot justify spending that much on one. To the people that can I say have at it and good luck.

RSKY

 

[buickanddeere]

Here are the fuel efficient vehicles.217 Best and Worst Fuel Economy Vehicles 217 Best and Worst Fuel Economy Vehicles

 

[vvanders]

That's why I was referring to the DCFC(DC Fast Charge) stations. For Tesla at least 200mi of range takes about 20-30 minutes and much less if you don't need to top up fully.

Superchargers are 120kW VDC right into the pack which is about the equivalent of about 6-7 houses of standard service size into one car. Usually takes me about 5 minutes to get the extra ~60 miles I need when I'm coming back from Seattle.

 

[buickanddeere]

Any new tech improves rapidly in it's early years however as the tech matures, the rate of improvement decreases as the graph reaches the knee and levels off onto the plateau.
The ICE, electric motors, batteries and vehicle aerodynamics have all passed the point of remarkable improvement. Any future efficiency increases require greater cost, complexity and reduction in reliability to obtain a percent or two of improvement.