engine dying again!!

vettemanwight · Jun 22, 2008

Sounds like a fuel issue to me. I had a Zetor 5211 when I used to milk cows great fuel mizer tractor. After awhile when it would be worked for about 15 min when I would be working it it would just die ! Let it sit for half hour and would start up and run for another 15 min. Finally I determined it had a pressure fuel system and the fill neck to the tank was not tight anymore. I had a spray can of galvanized paint , sprayed the fill neck twice with that and for the remaining two years I had the tractor I never had another problem with it. V

RickB · Jun 22, 2008

Here are my thoughts. Current Bosch pumps don't quite "work well or not at all". More than a few have been unrepairable by Bosch's own standards after developing severe running symptoms at very low hours. They are also overly sensitive to correct pump timing settings. First generation cold start advance units were just plain junk. Your symptoms don't necessarily make me think you have a pump problem, though, unless they are limited to a narrow RPM band around 1600. Next time you hear that solenoid buzz, power it directly from the battery with a good jumper wire. See if the buzz quits and how the tractor runs. Check the routing of ALL fuel line tubing, be sure there are no pinch points around cab or platform mounts, etc. Consider requiring all vinyl tubing be replaced due to suspicion of sucking air. Does this TD have the same mechanical transfer pump as TN's? If so, check the screen above the diaphram AND banjo bolt on the inlet fitting for debris.

WTA · Jun 23, 2008

It does have the same mechanical pump on it. Cleaning the screen on top of it was one of the first things I did too. There wasn't really anything on it but I blew it off anyway. We also have taken off all the flexible fuel hoses, blown them out and reinstalled them where there's no possibility of being pinched.

I keep going back to a problem I've run into on farmalls quite a bit where the fuel just gets in a vapor lock. Most old farmalls are gravity feed to the carb and if the fuel line has ever been replaced with a rubber hose or misrouted when it was put back together they get an air bubble in them and the flow stops. It's easy to find where a line on this one can possibly get a bubble too and I sure can't see it. I've also never had a vaporlock problem with a fuel pump system before.

I don't know. Still looking for the cause but it's acting fine now.

One thing I have learned about these tractors is the vented fuel cap needs some serious redesign. Instead of a valve that can plug shut with just the slightest bit of dirt, some sort of large orifice with a cleanable filter in it instead of a valve that shuts entirely would be a lot better.
That's what I did to mine. I milled off the whole valve and stuck an old inline fuel filter element in it. That will keep the dirt out for sure and it definitely won't plug up.

RickB · Jun 23, 2008

Vapor lock isn't your problem. Diesel fuel isn't volatile enough to begin with, and the gravity/suction side of that fuel system isn't subject to enough heat to volatize gasoline even. Be sure to check the banjo bolt at the inlet to the fuel transfer pump. The big crap will pile up in the fitting because it can't get through the holes in the banjo bolt. Beyond that, I think you are looing at an injection pump. But I am looking at it from quite a distance.

Birdman253 · Jun 24, 2008

Rick may certainly be right that it is the pump, but it sounds more to me like there is a small suction side leak, and the system is sucking air. Check all connections, and make sure all are tight. Inspect all hoses/tubes for areas that might be rubbed, or even just "weather-checked". If there is a pin hole leak on the suction side, it will never leak diesel, but will allow the system to suck air. When it dies, you bleed it out, and then it runs again, until it gets too much air again.

Good luck.

WTA · Jun 27, 2008

Here's the latest update:

I think I already said that I got the big wigs at new Holland involved unintentionally. What happened was I called their customer care number looking for someone that could help me diagnose this. I've worked at several dealers and I know all of them have a system to help mechanics out by pulling up problems and what was done to fix it on the computer.

Anyway, all I got was some kid that just asked me a bunch of stupid questions and then told me my tractor was too small to use this service.
He actually asked me if I put fuel in it too. This is a 95 horse fairly large tractor that I paid a good bit of money for last year brand new and I make my living with it. I was extremely unhappy with the service I got from him and sent an email to New holland about it telling them exactly what I think.

Now the whole darn company is involved all the way up to the highest level and that scares me. Every time they call I tell them just so it's clear that it's not the dealer I had a problem with. They have been great and done all they could. It was just the kid I talked to on the phone that day at new holland. I didn't want them going after my dealer trying to place blame or something for this.

Well, yesterday, it died again. It's been 5 times now.

I was just going out with my chisel plow to fix the weeds around my fence lines and I got about 100 feet and real suddenly it just shut off. It started right back up without problem and then was smoking white and carrying on again. I barely made it back to the house. That is a classic injector pump problem it seems to me. Before I'd had to bleed the system to get it going again but not now. One of the valves is locking up in the pump it's acting like now.
I called the dealer and asked him what he thought now and without saying what I was thinking he said injector pump. New holland also told them if it does it again to send in the pump and get it rebuilt.
Even though I kinda expected having to get it rebuilt the timing couldn't be worse and now I'm afraid I seem like I'm being a whiner but I was going to cut hay tonight. There's no way it would pull my swather now though. The dealer is on their way out to get it right now.

The new problem is I asked the dealer if they can provide a loaner tractor since this is still a warranty issue and I got time sensitive work to do. They said NH warranty doesn't cover that. Just great. My wife got on the phone to the person we've been talking to at NH then and told them what happened. Also about having to cut hay tonight. He is calling the area manager and telling him to contact our dealer to see what they can do. I sure hope noone gets reamed at our dealer for this. It's not their fault they don't get paid for loaners.

With the 4th of July holiday coming up and the weekend on us I can expect at least a week without my tractor and I got my second cutting of alfalfa sitting out there ready to cut.
The bad part is this cutting will be the majority of my very large tractor payment! They all know that. You cut hay when you can get clear weather for at least 5 or 6 days as forcasted on ALL the weather stations down here. This is it. It's also at 50% bloom right now and the people buying my hay are very picky race horse owners. They want the plant analysis reports every time. I sure hope the protein level doesn't go down too much waiting another week. They won't buy it if it does.

WTA · Jun 27, 2008

There is an injector pump shop right across the highway from the dealer I use. I don't know if they are certified for warranty work on the Bosche pumps like mine but I got my fingers crossed. I know I have taken then Bosche pumps before but not warranty jobs. If they aren't certified then it will have to be shipped off and I'm pretty much screwed as far as getting any hay done I guess.

The 3 big hay buyers I have all come from long distances up here with big semis because I have the best hay they can find. I've even been talking to one man all the way out in Mississippi abut shipping some to him. These race horse owners are picky ones. I just hope that darn hay is still good enough whenever I get my tractor back for them. I don't blame them for being picky about hay. I own horses too and for a long time I was stuck with whatever the feed stores had.

We don't use any chemicals on our alfalfa and hand pick the weeds out of it. I also run our pump nonstop on it to water it right. It's a lot different from anything else available around here.

RickB · Jun 27, 2008

Sounds like to me if you don't get a loaner you should make arrangements to rent a tractor. Walking away from a crop like that just hurts too much.

Eagleview · Jun 27, 2008

I would think it's not in need of a pump rebuild , it's just a little intermittent problem , sticky valve , crook solenoid , faulty relay , air leak etc . They may well inadvertantly rectify the problem while they are inside the pump but a switched on mechanic would diagnose and fix your problem on the tractor . Would the dealer loan you a pump to try ? Have you thought about hooking up a drum of fuel and gravity feeding the pump to rule out blockages , air leaks etc . Have you tried swaping the pump relay for a known good one , maybe a headlight relay etc . Have you taken the "buzzing" solenoid to an auto electrician to have checked ? You may find that when you finally get the pump back it may still have the problem .

WTA · Jun 28, 2008

I actually did everything you just said to do already. One of the last things I did was gravity feeding out of a small tank up in the cab. I've got all the test equipment I could ever need but I don't have access to a test bench for rebuilding pumps and injectors anymore. I can do any machine work I'd ever need on them just not set one up with what I have. I've been spoiled by nearly every dealer I've worked at being big enough to have their own pump shop. I usually either worked there or in the engine shop.

The dealer has my tractor now and I guess they took the pump off and sent it somewhere. I went by this morning but the mechanics don't work on saturday there. That's odd to me but oh well. I have worked in at least 10 different dealers and I never got saturdays off. This dealership is really small though. Their shop barely has room for my tractor by itself. If it wasn't for the parts and shop manager there having about as much experience as me on these things I would have trucked it to a big dealer in another town. I hope he is watching the mechanics like he said he would.

Really, I've been a diesel mechanic since 1984. This one got me stumped and I think it is a first. I can even rebuild those piece of junk stanadyn pumps on the GM trucks in my sleep but it's real rare that I've seen an intermittant problem like this.

At the GM and ford dealers I've worked at and one LARGE kubota and Massey Ferguson dealer we always gave out loaners to customers when we had to keep their tractor or vehicle more than 24 hours. Especially when it was a warranty job. Warranty didn't pay for it with them either but they kept their customers happy and in the field one way or another.