engine dying again!!

[RickB]

Those old Stanadynes and CAV's are primitive compared to what the emissions standards have done to today's mechanical injection pumps. The variable advance mechanisms and closer tolerances required have made puimp repair a nightmare. We have sent out a few of these to our local Bosch authorized shop and the majority have been scrapped under warranty as economically unrepairable. The notion that a tractor dealership technician is going to do anything positive to any internal component of today's Bosch rotary pump just makes me laugh. The pumps that work well for the first few hundred hours seem OK; the ones that cause trouble early are either OK after repair, or don't get that far at all.

 

[WTA]

Well, my tractor came home from the dealer last night. Actually I had to go get it because I had no more time left to get my hay cut. They were done with it they said.

I made it a couple miles down the road and it started missing real bad on me suddenly. I can't tell you how embarrasing that was driving by all the farms where people were out working in their green tractors and mine is going by puking white smoke and cutting out on me.
They had the injector pump rebuilt so I figured the timing was off. It was thanks to a missing bolt and another one loose on the pump. That was a fun ride home.

When I got here I set the timing like it's supposed to be myself and went to cutting. It was running perfect for almost 15 minutes then it started back with the same problem the pump just got rebuilt for. This is really getting frustrating now!
I managed to get my fields cut with it missing on me and I kept stopping to check for air leaks again and tighten things.
Today, I tightened every fuel fitting and clamp on the tractor once again and it seems a little better but not much. The temp had cooled off a lot with some storms going by and it seems to mess up worst when it's hot out. If my hay gets rained on now I don't know what I'll do. That's their tractor payment laying out there in the field right now! It wasn't supposed to rain today but it's sure coming down around us. It all should have been baled already and put up but the tractor died again and had to go to the dealer when I was ready to cut last week.

I'm at a loss as to what to do with it now. I don't think it's going back to that dealer again. Too many things have happened lately that have me pretty upset. Missing bolts on the injector pump and a broken bracket that they took off my engine really don't help matters. Neither did the hydraulic leak that was puking all over my alfalfa after it warmed up that they said they fixed. There is a good oil trail on about half of my windrows out there. This just isn't acceptable for a new tractor and we're looking at our options now. I've been living with this problem for a couple of months now. the mechanics have been out three times and it's spent a week in their shop with no cure. The two antique tractors I sold last year to get this one were a whole lot more reliable. Especially the farmall. I'm really missing that tractor right now.

 

[Eagleview]

I would think it's not in need of a pump rebuild , it's just a little intermittent problem , sticky valve , crook solenoid , faulty relay , air leak etc . They may well inadvertantly rectify the problem while they are inside the pump but a switched on mechanic would diagnose and fix your problem on the tractor . Would the dealer loan you a pump to try ? Have you thought about hooking up a drum of fuel and gravity feeding the pump to rule out blockages , air leaks etc . Have you tried swaping the pump relay for a known good one , maybe a headlight relay etc . Have you taken the "buzzing" solenoid to an auto electrician to have checked ? You may find that when you finally get the pump back it may still have the problem .

You say you have done all the things i suggested above but something has obviously been missed . You still can't rule out the pump either because of the solenoids and check valves etc that they would not have tested with the rebuild . I feel your pain , you have no choice but to hire or borrow a tractor to get your hay in . Other wise you will be going backwards financially at full speed .

 

[Robert_in_NY]

I would be looking to trade that tractor in while you still can. It might even qualify for the lemon law but I don't know enough about that to say for sure. Either way I would get rid of the tractor and find a new dealer that will loan you a tractor if yours breaks down and buy from him.

 

[WTA]

We're trying to get more information on the lemon law for our state right now. It's not easy on the holiday so I may have to talk to a lawyer on monday. I'm going to ask him about the trail of oil down most of my windrows too from a leak they told me they fixed!

On the good side I may have finaly found the problem but I'm going to give it a few days of hard work till I can say for sure. There is a vent line coming off the back of the pump, it runs up through the intake heater(glow plug) and on back to the tank. It was routed really weird up and over the top of the engine and had 4 plastic zip ties on it securing it very tightly to wiring harnesses. I tried to blow air through it and it went through but not nearly what I would expect from a 1/4 inch rubber hose. After I cut all the zip ties and routed it more in a straight line the air blows through it just fine. I've been running it about 10 hours now and done one fill up without so much as a hickup so we'll see.

Should I sent them the bill for all the hours I've spent working on it under warranty? Man this makes me mad!

 

[Robert_in_NY]

We're trying to get more information on the lemon law for our state right now. It's not easy on the holiday so I may have to talk to a lawyer on monday. I'm going to ask him about the trail of oil down most of my windrows too from a leak they told me they fixed!

On the good side I may have finaly found the problem but I'm going to give it a few days of hard work till I can say for sure. There is a vent line coming off the back of the pump, it runs up through the intake heater(glow plug) and on back to the tank. It was routed really weird up and over the top of the engine and had 4 plastic zip ties on it securing it very tightly to wiring harnesses. I tried to blow air through it and it went through but not nearly what I would expect from a 1/4 inch rubber hose. After I cut all the zip ties and routed it more in a straight line the air blows through it just fine. I've been running it about 10 hours now and done one fill up without so much as a hickup so we'll see.

Should I sent them the bill for all the hours I've spent working on it under warranty? Man this makes me mad!

If that is the problem I would make sure and tell the mechanics what you found and did in case they run into this again. Giving them a bill won't do much good. Hopefully you did find the problem and now you only have to get the oil leak fixed.

I have not heard of anyone having any chronic problems with their TDD or JX (the red version which has been here longer). Hopefully your problems are past you but I would still be looking for a different dealer that is geared towards your needs and the needs of your farm.

 

[WTA]

There is another dealer about 60 miles away that I am going to start using. If I have to. Normally I don't ever take anything to another mechanic unless it's a warranty thing. I still need a place to get parts though. This other dealer though has 15 mechanics and the proper tools to do the job. They have been there a while too. The one I have been gong to is close by but they only have two inexperienced mechanics.

I fixed the leak. All it took was a 26 MM wrench and a couple times loosening it and tightening it. It's a banjo fitting with copper washers on the spool valve on back. I asked them to replace the washers but I guess I should have asked them to retighten it also when they were done.

Oh, I'm not telling them squat! They can figure this one out on their own next time.

For all of you people, the return line from the pump straight back to the tank via the intake heater is way too long and should not be tied tightly like it was. If yours is missing or feeling weird then follow that hose all the way back and make sure it's not pinched, especially where it goes over the rear hood bracket and where it turns the corner to go under the cab. Also make sure all the zip ties aren't too tight on it. That thing has to flow fuel and it's not going to do it like it came on mine.
I just can't figure out why it waited till 200 hours or so to start messing up. I guess it's possible that vibration and heat maybe caused the ties to slip and go tighter where it was attached to the wiring harnesses.
I also rerouted that line more directly around the back of the engine and straight to the tank where it's all downhill all the way to the tank.

 

[Eagleview]

We also have taken off all the flexible fuel hoses, blown them out and reinstalled them where there's no possibility of being pinched.

It seems like you've been here before .

 

[MikePA]

Oh, I'm not telling them squat! They can figure this one out on their own next time.

You'd be helping out other owners whose tractors have the same problem.

 

[WTA]

I looked at that hose before but it's the only one I didn't take off myself. One of the mechanics told me they did it. I don't see how after I took it off myself. I had to drop the tank on one end just to get to it. That's when I noticed how tight the zip ties were on it.

The reason I don't feel like telling them anything is I have lost two custom farming contracts over all this plus probably 200 ruined bales of hay out there due to that oil leak.
Being a mechanic myself for so long I guess it's my own fault. I should have known to check their work but when I picked up the tractor the only thing on my mind was getting my hay done. Without that my family really would have been screwed for money.

All the years I spent in supervisory positions I never once let any machine out the door without personally checking the repair myself. Only now that I'm semi retired am I getting lax in it. Walmart got me last month with a set of tires they put on my truck and now this.

Though with the walmart incident, I did catch the mistake they made at first. They balanced my tires wrong and I told the manager they need to go back and try again. They had weights in 3 different positions on each side of my new tires. Totally wrong. They did go back and redo them but they screwed them up that time too and I didn't recheck it because I thought I got the message across. They also put 80 PSI in the front tires and 50 in the back when I told them the exact opposite and made sure that was written in the work order.
I just can't win.

ANy of you that have ever driven with overinflated front tires in truck rutted highways will know how long it took me to figure out that screw up.

 

[RickB]

Here are my thoughts. Check the routing of ALL fuel line tubing, be sure there are no pinch points around cab or platform mounts, etc.

My original post, 6/22/08.
Glad it's finally sorted out.

 

[WTA]

Well, It acted up a little bit again. I just went and replaced both suction side hoses this time. It's running stronger than ever and finished up my mowing without a problem. SInce this always seems to come again right when I think I've got it I'll wait a few days again and report back if it's cured.

 

[WTA]

Well, it didn't work.

 

[WTA]

Well, after my last post where I was too mad to think straight because it died again on me, the dealer came and got it.

They had it a week this time. I sent along a typed letter outlining everything they have done, I have done and also a list of things the mechanic fouled up when it was in the last time. They fixed all of that but weren't happy about it I could tell. They also threw a new lift pump on it. The dealer painted over all the nuts and bolts they had to remove also and made the implication to me that it was my fault this thing wasn't running. I was told if I break any of the paint seals that the warranty will be voided.

If they could figure it out I wouldn't have to be working on it in the middle of the night just to keep the engine running while I'm baling hay and a storm is coming.

In my letter to them I nicely asked that the manager personally inspect it and make darn sure it was running properly and the parts their shop broke were all fixed properly before calling me to say it's good to go again.
They delivered it early this morning finally. Friday morning. It sounded great coming off the trailer. All the broken parts were replaced as I requested and things seemed fine to me. SInce I was on my way out on an errand when the driver was here I just parked it in the driveway till we got back.

After I got home I got in, turned the key, drove it to where my big shredder was parked, hooked it all up and started out across my field to mow the weeds that are way out of control now thanks to this tractor and it did it again! It blew a huge puff of white smoke, bogged down hard and died. I was so mad I can't even put it into words.
I Started it back up with some difficulty because I was told not to touch any of the parts they painted, Bleed screw included, and moved it out of the way of the gate it died in front of. It died real fast this time but at least I was able to move it.

Let's see, two months, two months of lost work and profits from my farm, refusal to give me a loaner while everyone sits around scratching their heads, inability to fix it with two times in the shop and three visits to the farm, parts broken by the mechanic that he obviously didn't care enough to tell anyone about, hydraulic fittings left loose that completely ruined one crop of alfalfa. I'm about done with this crap. They are coming out to get it again right now. I talked with Top service on the phone again and she had me on hold so much I just hung up. I had asked for a loaner, explaining that I'm losing my butt on the farm thanks to all of this and all I got was excuses. I told them I can not send it back to this shop again and I want them to come get it and take it to another shop. Perfectly reasonable I thought but I was told no to that also. That's great service I think. I was mad on the phone but not out of line and reasonably calm.

All I can say is I'm not happy right now. I don't know what I'm going to do with the farm since I can't get a loaner. It's on it's way back to the shop again now and I have weeds to kill right now or else I lose another crop. People buying horse hay do not want mostly weeds. They want no weeds! It should have been sprayed a week ago when they were a couple inches tall, not now when they are three feet tall! but of course the tractor was in the shop again.
It really sounds like they are trying to find a way out and blame this on me but the service manager did tell me a factory rep is coming out this time. I'm sure my rapidly growing weeds out in the field are happy knowing they have another hold on their death sentence. My hay is due to cut in two weeks too.

I guess I'll get out my wide brimmed hat and the sea bag and get to hand picking. AGAIN! It's all I can do now. This whole deal is probably on of the biggest disappointments of my life. I thought I was buying the best tractor brand made but now I'm about to be forced out of the farming business by it. My payment on it is due in a couple weeks too. Isn't that nice.

Oh, my lawyer laughed at this one, I wrote in my letter to them about that hydraulic fitting they left loose that puked all over my alfalfa. I also wrote that I FIXED IT in the field. The service manager told my wife yesterday that he checked it and it wasn't loose.

NO crap. I FIXED IT!

 

[WTA]

Can anyone think of ANYTHING else at all, no matter how stupid it may sound that can be causing my engine to miss badly, smoke white and die?

The injection pump has now been rebuilt

new lift pump,

new fuel filters several times

New fuel filter housing and bleeder screw,

New suction side fuel hoses, from pump to filter and filter to tank


The problem is it's intermittent. Sometimes it will run fine at 2000 rpm here sitting in the driveway. The dealer said they ran it for two hours this time and it didn't act up. They replaced the lift pump and filter housing this time.

It ran 5 minutes after getting home before it died though. All I was doing was slowly driving across the field getting ready to mow and was at about 1500 rpm. I was using the foot throttle and at first the RPM started hunting mildly. I thought it was just my foot bouncing on the pedal so I switched over to the hand throttle and that's when it started blowing smoke and died.

I can't picture this being an injector problem at all. Any 4 cylinder out there will stay running with one bad or dead injector. 2 will usually kill it pretty fast but it feels a lot different than this.
I haven't used any antifreeze that wasn't caused by an external leak. I've fixed two drippy hoses on it so far.

I can't picture it being something tight in the engine. Like a sticking ring, valve or anything else.

All I know for sure is when it dies the filters are full of air. The entire fuel system has been replaced now though. Or rebuilt as in the case of the injector pump.
I am not aware of any electrically actuated switches anywhere on it that will shut the motor down. The shutoff solenoid is either open or shut, no in between on them. It doesn't always die. Sometimes it just runs like it wants to die.
Just looking for more ideas. Meanwhile I'm going shopping around for a new USED tractor. I have got to have something working here.

 

[randy41]

better business bureau. a phone call to the corporate headquarters. a better lawyer.

 

[WTA]

Better Business bureau is my very next step, My lawyer doesn't do cases like this at all and has referred me to one that does. Unfortunately I am nowhere near being in a position to afford him. This state does not consider tractors to be worthy of the lemon law so I'm screwed there too.
Corporate headquarters and top service; absolutely no help. In fact the first time I called I was promised they would fix it or get me a new one by someone that apparently didn't know what he was talking about. They now deny saying that. The regional manager that they said would be calling me never has either. Of course noone will give me his number either.

 

[FULLPULL]

I know a problem like this has to be to wost kind of problem to have . If the fuel shut off silenoid works and the pump works and the lines and tank and outlet screens are clean the tractor should run right . To me it has to be electric or fuel related . It still sounds like the injector pump but there could be a wire or ignition switch some where in the picture. A loose fuse or a bad computer board . It also could be some kind of saftey switch going bad. It was easy to figure out on the older tractors not as much if any to do with electrical to keep the tractor running. I would call the dealer and get a appointment with the factory rep . On the fuel filter could they have left a extra o-ring on the housing causing a bad seal . I would be looking for little things you might find it. Check the air filter for a small hole letting dust to ruin the engines rings .

 

[WTA]

I'm sure the air filter is good. I have replaced it several times too. It's real dusty around here. I always reach up in the air hose looking for dust too and shine a light up there looking. Old habit from rebuilding too many of these things.

I keep looking and looking at diagrams of this thing and trying to figure it out. There is no computer, no loose wires or fuses, the voltage stays regular on the shutoff and the injector shop checked it when they rebuilt the pump. It was done by a very large and reputable shop here.

I can't find any safety switches capable of shutting down the engine either. They all just go to idiot lights. The seat, PTO, oil pres, temp, water in fuel all go to lights and aren't connected in any way to the shutoff as best as I or anyone else can determine. If it were any of this or even the ignition switch then the shutoff would drop power when whatever it is failed. It never has though. It's just a one wire solenoid so it's either on with power or off without power. I even removed and cleaned the tar out of the battery ground cable just in case. Ever since I had to rebuild an engine once on another brand tractor because a frame ground failed and the current took a path through the crankshaft instead, welding the bearings, I always check cables first.

It's just weird! I don't know if the fact that I can't figure it out or that I'm losing money like crazy while it sits in the shop is ticking me off worse. Ive never been stumped by an engine in my life before.

 

[FULLPULL]

Try to see if the tractor dies if you get off of the seat while driving . If it does the seat switch may be the problem. Try hooking your seat belt and see if the problem still is there. My seat switch caused me and others to think our transmission was jumping out of gear when we were slightly letting our weight off of the seat switch . It was a saftey in case you got off of the seat it would go to neutral and we had to shuttle back in gear. If you drive setting on the front edge of the seat it will let the switch activate.