Equipment Utilization

HayDR · Dec 7, 2004

cowboydoc,
Slowzuki mentioned 100 acres. The hybrid ryes' and rye grass' will out yield alfalfa and give the same protein numbers. We are also talking Canada with a super short growing season. Likely alfalfa is not the best crop for them. Row croppers love to bust the soil and burn the fuel with big tractors but most of the hay is cut harvested, & baled with tractors less than 100 HP. If you run those big heavy tractors you will have to sub-soil more often. A 100 acres does not warrant a tractor bigger than 85 PTO HP. Yes many farmers have larger HP tractors but so do some people have ton trucks and never transport or tow anything.
No-Till Seeding of Forage Grasses and Legumes

cowboydoc · Dec 7, 2004

The hybrid ryes' and rye grass' will out yield alfalfa and give the same protein numbers 

That is true rye will outperform for ONE cutting only. Total yield for the year alfalfa will outperform rye hands down. Usually 2 cuttings is all you will get. With alfalfa four cuttings and possibly five. Even in Montana with it's short growing seasons you can get four cuttings. Protein content in rye is also going to be significantly less with subsequent cuttings. With alflalfa it will be greatly increased.

No till seeding in existing grass you certainly have a great variety of applications and no till is one of them. What the report you mentioned doesn't give you is the germination rate. It is very poor with overseeding alfalfa as they suggest. With the good alflafa at $200 plus per 50 lbs. you want it all to germinate. Getting a good seedbed and then planting alfalfa with oats is an excellent way to get a very fast cover crop. If you're seeding on highly erodable soil then yes it would certainly be worth the trade-off but on soil that is not highly erodable you are much better off to plow, disc, harrow, and seed. Knowing when to do what and what is going to produce the best results is very important. What works well in one application is a poor choice in another situation.

Villengineer · Dec 8, 2004

Not to be smart, but apparently I missed the part of his question which limited this discussion to haying. If the majority of farming in his area consists of haying you're probably correct in that there may not be an abundance of contract tillage work. That being said the majority of fields in my area are rotated in soy, corn, and sometimes wheat so they till every year. Some of the smaller farms will put these fields in hay for a year every 5-10 years as much to help the soil "recover" as much as to get the hay. Most of the hay fields are generally less or un-acceptable for tilling. Also it seems that no-till is starting to loose popularity here. A few years ago that was the hot new thing, but it seems that now more of them are going to something along the lines of "low-till". I'd say a pretty high percentage still turn the soil twice a year. Now, my grandfather had a beef farm in NE Ohio and all he did was hay. The largest tractor he ever used was a MF175. Of course I also don't remember him ever tilling any of the 150 acres of fields. In fact the only tillage equipment he had was an 8' foot disc and I think it only got used on the garden.

slowzuki · Dec 8, 2004

Certainly don't want this to turn into a confrontational discussion based on area of growing /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Some of the locals avoid paying for tillage by offering their fields for grain or corn use at a low price. The renter works the soil for their crop and seeds a hay crop at the same time.

This lets many of the small guys completely avoid any investment in tillage. It is also why none of those companies exist locally, only to the south.

Most of my hay fields are unsuitable for this as much rock picking would need to be done and it isn't attractive for someone to invest in that work too for one year of planting.

In Nova Scotia there is a very large company owned by a dutch family that does tillage, manure storage/application and some other custom work. They own all Fendt or Landini tractors if I recall right even though there is no local dealer or importer. They have been very successful and have abandoned there own farming activities I think.

Manure storage is getting expensive here with all the enviro rules so they store liquid manure for many farms in a huge tank that has secondary containment etc. This lets other farms avoid the capital expense.

rdln · Dec 8, 2004

Take a look at this and see if your states university has something similar
Michigan state custom rates

browncountyoh · Dec 8, 2004

Most tractor rentals go to contractors or homeowners who require the smaill utility tractors. The farmers I know would'nt even think about working their farm with a tractor they did not own. I say this seriously, there is a bonding of man and machine. Working your land with a rented tractor would be like going out on your wife /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

rambler · Dec 10, 2004

( Why would you need to bust sod on hay ground so often? You can no-till any crop into the sod. You may want rip or pull a sub-soiler every 10 years but it's a waste to bust sod more than that. A 4 wheel drive 50-80 HP tractor will do any of that work.

)

Here in the midwest, farms are getting to be 200 acres of alfalfa, and 800-2000 acres of corn/ beans. It is best to rotate the alfalfa every 3-6 years, and in cold wet soils no-till doesn't work well. As well, you need to work in the N, P, & K for best effect. Alfalfa does not last 10 years or more at 4 cuttings a year.

The 80 hp tractor will get the alfalfa planted, perhaps 25-30 acres a year. But what about the other 800-1800 acres? And as long as you have the big tractor for those acres.... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

--->Paul

eee · Dec 10, 2004

Bart,
Where in WVa are you ?

HayDR · Dec 10, 2004

As I have said many times and the USDA statistics will back me up on this. Alfalfa is less than 30% of all the hay harvested. Alfalfa is primarily grown by the commercial hay producers and dairy farmers. Over 50% of the cattle are owned by farmers with total farm acreage of 150 acres or less. And if you put horse owners into the equation we are talking most of these farmers are small farmers. Last year there were 180,000 tractors sold with less than 100 HP and only 13,000 sold with over 100 HP. Most people harvesting hay, harvest grass hay and do not need large tractors.

cowboydoc · Dec 10, 2004

How about posting those statistics? It's been asked many times but we never see the data.

rambler · Dec 10, 2004

( As I have said many times and the USDA statistics will back me up on this. Alfalfa is less than 30% of all the hay harvested. Alfalfa is primarily grown by the commercial hay producers and dairy farmers. Over 50% of the cattle are owned by farmers with total farm acreage of 150 acres or less. And if you put horse owners into the equation we are talking most of these farmers are small farmers. Last year there were 180,000 tractors sold with less than 100 HP and only 13,000 sold with over 100 HP. Most people harvesting hay, harvest grass hay and do not need large tractors. )

I understand, where you live small farmers are the norm.

Where I live, a small dairy is 100 cows these days, the 2000 head dairies are expandibf to 4000 head to 'keep up'.

http://www.nass.usda.gov/mn/agstat03/p025.pdf

This web site shows crops in Minnesota. Alfalfa is raised on 2/3 of the hay land, producing 4 times the tons of feed, worth 6-7 times as many dollars.

Alfalfa is big business up here in the upper midwest, grass hay is basically the waste land that isn't suited for anything else. Just how it is.

Where I live, you get 2 cuttings of grass, the second one is pretty light most years. While you get 4 cuttings of alfalfa, only the last one is light. A person goes broke raising grass hay up here. Everyone dumps off their 'ditch hay' so grass hay is about worthless. While alfalfa is always valued.

Not that either of us is wrong, just different practices in different regions. I myself bale small squares with tractors of 45 hp & less. But on average, up here in the midwest, alfalfa is king for hay. And haylege as well.

--->Paul

HayDR · Dec 10, 2004

In 2003, 87 million acres were reported and total alfalfa & all hay combined. 23.5 million acres were Alfalfa that is 27%. 2003 US ALFALFA PRODUCTION Many small farmers do not report their production and the true figure would less than 20% of hay grown is Alfalfa. Also in the west much of the non-irrigated hay that is harvested is not reported. The whole world is not Iowa & MN. Even in Iowa and MN only 30-40% of the hay harvested is Alfalfa. In most of the South, Alfalfa production is less than 10%.
This started out when someone asked about 100 acres of ground in Canada and suggestions for that 100 acres.

cowboydoc · Dec 10, 2004

I think you better check your #'s Mark. Total hay production was 63.2 million acres. Of that 23.5 million was alfalfa and 39.7 million was other. That equals out to 37% not 27%. Obviously you have not been into and had to fill out FSA reports. When you fill out your report ONLY 100% alfalfa fields go into the alfalfa category. If you have any grass or clover in your alfalfa it goes into the other category. Last year when I reported I had what I would consider all alfalfa but because of the reporting guidelines any fields that have grass or clover in them are reported as mixed hay which goes into the other category. In the south you don't grow alfalfa because the ground is too poor to grow it!

Also you better recheck your #'s for alfalfa in Iowa. I knew you were wrong on this one. There were 1,330,000 acres of alfalfa grown and 270,000 acres of other hay. THIS IS 83% alfalfa!!!!

In MN there were 1,375,000 in alfalfa and 700,000 in other hay. This is 66% pure alfalfa!

In Idaho the #'s were 1,200,000 in alfalfa and 300,000 in other. This is 80% alflafa!!!

As you can see your #'s for midwest and the west are completely wrong.

I live in Idaho and Iowa and you RARELY see grass hay getting cut. It's like Rambler said it's basically junk hay compared to alfalfa and nobody wants it.

Another very interesting note is production. Even though acres of alfalfa was 23,500,000 compared to 39,700,000 the production for alfalfa in tons/acre was 76,307,000 compared to 80,816. Even though the % of alfalfa acres nationally was 37% the crop production in tons was 48% of the total production.

If you look at dollar amounts alfalfa production destoyed "other" production. Alfalfa generated 6.9 billion in sales and "other" generated 5.4 billion.

rambler · Dec 11, 2004

I believe you to be totally wrong on your numbers there. My link totally disproves you on Minnesota for sure, and your national numbers are all wrong as well.

But that's not the point of this thread, as you say, and I agree with that. Answering his question is the right thing, I won't worry about the national & state numbers - however wrong you are.... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif.

I also personally agree with you on the lighter machinery on an alfalfa field being a _good_ thing. I would rather rake a big windrow & drive slow with the baler - less heavy traffic that way. I can only shake my head at the big self propelled choppers with tandom axle 18+ foot silage boxes, and big 200hp support tractors pulling those wagons all over the field keeping up. It has to be that way on a big operation, but the alfalfa crowns _have_ to suffer on it!

--->Paul

HayDR · Dec 11, 2004

Rambler I knew I was wrong when I said it about Iowa because I have traveled the whole state and Alfalfa is king there. Most cow calf farmers in the USA can not care less about Alfalfa only the feedlots, commercial producers and dairy farmers do. But someone has to pull MR Green-jeans chain, LOL. cowboydoc can only see JD Green. His crack about the south having poor soil is only true in the mountain areas. What is crazy why can't the farmers in Iowa realize you can not make a living with corn less than $2. I'm sure glad they continue to keep planting more acres because my calves like to eat cheap corn. Those same Iowa farmers blame the government for $1.75 corn when the want to increase their acreage.

Egon · Dec 11, 2004

Maybe travel north of 49 to see a different perspective.

Egon

cowboydoc · Dec 12, 2004

But someone has to pull MR Green-jeans chain, 

Nice that you could be so good on your #'s Mark and be such a good source of info. So you basically just tell lies about crop production here so that you can pull my chain. Glad you enjoy giving misinfromation to people and telling lies. Really unbelievable that you're supposed to be a businessman and a professional in your field and you purposely have been going on for a couple years now about these kinds of things knowing all along that you knew you were wrong and yet kept giving misinformation. Glad you also enjoy putting down the Iowa farmers.

MikePA · Dec 12, 2004

...I knew I was wrong when I said it about Iowa... 
Nice, Mark, real nice. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

HayDR · Dec 12, 2004

Cowboydoc,
We are posting on, TBN, a forum mostly of individuals that gain their primary income from other than farming. These part time farmers or land owners generate more GNP than large farmers just because of their numbers. They spend 10 times more money per acre the row crop guys do. In Iowa a machinery dealer will be lucky if he has on average 3 farmers per section. KS, MO, KY, TN, NY, & PA all have larger acreage amounts of hay than Iowa but yet will have 6-20 customers per section. Iowa machinery dealers have a smaller pool of customers and I'd guess they have to have larger trade areas and margins. These small farmer that own small tractors are voters and their total house income totals much greater numbers to that of fulltime farmers. I believe true farmers need to recruit these landowners to be sympathetic too a farmers way of life is. They are somewhat exposed to farmers plights. Personal property rights are key to all of our freedoms.
Since Iowa has the best soil in the world, their farmers have many more possibilities than, as you say, the "poor soil" farmers of the South. To whom much has been given, much shall be required. If a TN farmer was losing $100 an acre on a crop or livestock. I would tell him the same thing, "find something that works do not blame the government for your mismanagement." It is not what you generate in income, it is what you spend. I personally believe the CRP programs & support price subsidies are welfare social programs on the order of food stamps. These programs should be used as relief programs not entitlements. We should not have to pay farmers to not raise crops but let market demand set the prices. We should also play hardball with exports and imports. If our goods are not allowed free entry into another countries market then that countries goods should not be allowed to enter our markets.
Alfalfa is primarily a commercial crop grown for sale to the dairy, horse industry or some feedlots. Most producers of hay grow it for their own consumption. Since we see that 90% of tractors sold are less than 100HP it is for sure that most of hay production is being done by these small tractors.
The true misfortune are the people that can not afford good healthcare. I hope you are doing all you can to reduce these costs.

HayDR · Dec 12, 2004

Concerning the USDA Stats they separate out Small grains and some of these are used as haylage and or straw.

I want to apologize to Cowboydoc and any others I might have offended for knowingly giving false data about alfalfa.