European vs US safety

[_RaT_]

As sweeping generalizations, with all their shortcomings;
No, I think the US approach seems to be to hide behind warning labels.
No, I think the European approach is not intrusive, it seems to be more a "safety by design" approach.

Warning, ,,,,,,, and a a lot of mumble about "including but not limited to property damage, severe personal injury, loss of life" (sometimes in that order).
Doesn't DO much.

My Caroni flail mower (US sale) lacks the side rails that are included in Europe.
At a guess they are just about wide enough to hit a leg/ankle before the cutters get over the toes.
Makes sense to me, but apparently not required by USDA, CPSC, or whoever.
Since it is a mower and only 1.9m wide it probably doesn't come under "Agriculture".
Since it goes behind a tractor, it probably doesn't come under "Consumer" either.
OTOH, my (US bought) unicycle HAD TO HAVE reflectors mounted in the spokes.
(makes Ya wonder)

Anyway, thanks for starting a safety related thread that doesn't ask how to defeat a safety interlock or report dismemberment - very unusual (-:

Sounds like a tractor operator issue as much as anything.

"Warning, Danger, Achtung" driving this flail mower over human beings could injure them. Or if its the operator of the tractor getting off and leaving the PTO engaged (and on modern tractors, the seat kill switch disconnected) and then placing said ankles toes etc under the spinning mower, maybe its natures little way off adding chlorine to the gene pool.

Step ladders have maybe 7 warning labels on them, what else can you do, require an operating permit? My nail gun actually has a picture of a guy in a hard hat with a nail gun pushed against the hard hat with a circle and a line through it. I'm not sure if they are saying "Do not use this nail gun on peoples heads" or "do not use this nail gun on someones head when someone is wearing a hard hat", either way, my common sense kicked in and I have yet to do either.

As I said, I don't advocate building unsafe stuff, but if your saying that the chute on Hazmats chipper looks terribly unsafe, make it 3 feet longer and then criticize the Euro model for allowing a long legged person from possibly getting his toes and maybe even ankles a trimming. My guess is that if your flail mower had guard rails on the sides, if I understand you correctly, some character might take that as its OK to drive the tractor or worse the mower right next to a life without regard since they will be safe. If thats the case my comment might question them being on a tractor, a car, heck even using a ladder with the labels peeled off or worse, one that has been painted. :confused2:

Given a choice between the two chippers, my personal preference would be for Hazmats. If I made them, I would want one with enough stickers to avoid having to even paint the thing so that when I inevitably end up in court I can show the injury attorney that on sticker 157 I warn against using the chipper to sharpen pencils. I'd have a chipper chute 7 feet long to ensure that all but the longest of (or is it tallest) NBA basketball players would be safe in the event they decided to crawl down it to retrieve the piece of gum that flew out of their mouth when they sneezed from the inevitable dust a chipper makes. :confused2: My market I am sure would be quite small although I am seeing some potential buyers here.

I'm not here to promote any unsafe bad design, but I will also say that most things having gotten dramatically safer than they ever were don't you think? Push mowers even without the side bars to prevent ankles and toes from getting under, riding mowers, all tractors sold here in the US today, nail guns, table saws, in fact I am trying to think of something that has gotten less safe. Not being a gun person I would guess that they are made better to prevent an accidental fire should it be dropped but that's for someone else with knowledge of guns to chime in on. I would suspect that pointing the end with the hole on it is still not a wise thing to do unless that is the intent.

By the way, is it the US that requires the shroud at the tractor PTO and not elsewhere? If so, chalk one up for the US, it makes hooking up the PTO at times a four letter word task however.

 

[Cidertom]

(Against my better judgement, I have decided to comment). Being in the Emergency Services and in a rural farming area I have noticed a few things that trouble me.

1: I am seeing a trend of "the (piece of equipment) wouldn't let me do something dangerous."

2: "There is so much safety built in I don't need to read the operators manual."

3: "it's not my fault"

I agree that some of the EU equipment has more safety features, but they are sometimes applied cookie cutter fashion rather than with forethought. From my view the EU seems to look at it : Someone might do this, it should be protected. The US version is someone did this we had to fix it.

The problem I am having is where safety device A interferes with safety device B. I had this on my JD 4520. The PTO shaft guard on the tractor interfered with the bell guard on the pto shaft. I am not going to have the shaft unprotected. Guess which one went.

I would say that in my 29 years as an EMT, the vast majority of these incidents would be prevented by RTFM.

 

[JCB]

Just to thow some fuel on the fire. Regarding taking reponsibility, yeah I'm responsible for myself but working around rotating equipment is dangerous and I don't mind a little extra safety.

Sometimes it's about more than just keeping hands out of harms way, it's also about catching a loose shoelace in a flail mower, getting dragged into a chipper. Yeah Pto covers make greasing U-joints a pita, but safety like security works best in layers. Call it common sense, nanny state, whatever....when gambling with my hands or life I don't see the risk/reward for acting tough. I'm fallible and I'll gladly take the extra layers of safety. Some won't.

 

[Cidertom]

And then there is the safety issues that no equipment can overcome.
YouTube - funny digger accident

 

[dave1949]

And then there is the safety issues that no equipment can overcome.
YouTube - funny digger accident

Have you ever thought about things you did as a kid - and realize you are lucky to be alive with both eyes and all fingers?
Dave.

 

[Reg]

And then there is the safety issues that no equipment can overcome.
YouTube - funny digger accident

The KEY is supposed to be the safety item - of course it has to be kept out of the wrong hands ^--^

 

[_RaT_]

Just to thow some fuel on the fire. Regarding taking reponsibility, yeah I'm responsible for myself but working around rotating equipment is dangerous and I don't mind a little extra safety.

Sometimes it's about more than just keeping hands out of harms way, it's also about catching a loose shoelace in a flail mower, getting dragged into a chipper. Yeah Pto covers make greasing U-joints a pita, but safety like security works best in layers. Call it common sense, nanny state, whatever....when gambling with my hands or life I don't see the risk/reward for acting tough. I'm fallible and I'll gladly take the extra layers of safety. Some won't.

Curious how long your shoelaces are. When your on the tractor seat can your untied shoelace get all the way back to the flail mower or you mowing that close to other people with not only the mower but the tractor as well? If so, you have already violated a safety rule. Perhaps anyone else doing this should consider taking some safety courses not only to protect themselves but those around them.

As you can see, I am playing somewhat of a devils advocate here. Keeping anyone safe should always be the goal. As litigious as we have become, I think most companies are doing a pretty good job. Careless people will continue to figure out ways to do some of the dumbest things and we all pay for it.

 

[_RaT_]

Have you ever thought about things you did as a kid - and realize you are lucky to be alive with both eyes and all fingers?
Dave.

Plenty of times and I suppose its why I try to diligently watch my 8 year old. Electricity being a big concern, invisible death as I consider it. When I am on the tractor, I don't allow him or others near the whirling 6' flail mower, PTO drive line or for that matter, anywhere around the tractor where he could get run over. Not sure if I ever read about not running the tractor over little kids in the manual, I have developed an acute amount of common sense that helped me figure that out without reading a manual or a label. If there are any safety questions please ask away. I will do my best to answer them. :thumbsup:

 

[mjncad]

The KEY is supposed to be the safety item - of course it has to be kept out of the wrong hands ^--^

The parent is the PRIMARY safety item in my opinion. Yes, I did stupid stuff as a kid too, and I'm lucky to be in one piece. Some of my contemporaries did even stupider things and paid the price for it, and in a couple of cases...the ultimate price.

Plenty of times and I suppose its why I try to diligently watch my 8 year old. Electricity being a big concern, invisible death as I consider it. When I am on the tractor, I don't allow him or others near the whirling 6' flail mower, PTO drive line or for that matter, anywhere around the tractor where he could get run over. Not sure if I ever read about not running the tractor over little kids in the manual, I have developed an acute amount of common sense that helped me figure that out without reading a manual or a label. If there are any safety questions please ask away. I will do my best to answer them. :thumbsup:

When I used to mow weeds as a sideline, I told homeowners that I would not start mowing until their kids and pets were safely indoors.

 

[pat32rf]

I feel it boils down to the old question- Should you tell your kids to stay away from the water, or teach them to swim?

 

[SensibleNick]

I feel it boils down to the old question- Should you tell your kids to stay away from the water, or teach them to swim?

Much like the original question, It's never that simple

Our huge pond for example has depths from half a meter down to 3 meters. the bottom however is DEEP sludge. If you try to stand in the shallows you sink. If you were to dive into it I'm fairly sure you'd never come out again.... A kid that can swim may survive it, but they'd be far safer staying away from it.

With regards to the OP... I clearly live in Europe. I've not lived in the US, so I'm not really qualified to make a comparison, but the way I look at the difference goes a little bit like this.

USA: Warning stickers make it hard to sue for damages, but they don't stop idiocy or ignorance from causing terrible accidents to happen. Given the apparent addiction to suing anything that moves, the policy seems to be to protect the manufacturer legally.

Europe: There are far fewer lawsuits here. A "class action lawsuit" regarding the power of lawnmower motors would be ridiculed. While easy to denounce as "nanny-state" etc, the general policy seems to be more orientated around protecting the end-users where possible.

I for one would rather something comes with safety features that someone has put some thought into. If they're a PITA, I'll remove them - and blame myself if it causes me a problem.

Much like Germany, we in Sweden have a mandatory chimney-sweep visit each year. We're in the middle of re-lining our chimney, and it's the local sweep who'll be approving it and signing off on it.

Fewer house-fires, and insurance doesn't refuse to pay up if a chimney fire does cause damage as they know it's approved and properly cleaned.
Laws rules and regulations... I'm happy with them, the system works.

 

[_RaT_]

Much like the original question, It's never that simple

Our huge pond for example has depths from half a meter down to 3 meters. the bottom however is DEEP sludge. If you try to stand in the shallows you sink. If you were to dive into it I'm fairly sure you'd never come out again.... A kid that can swim may survive it, but they'd be far safer staying away from it.

With regards to the OP... I clearly live in Europe. I've not lived in the US, so I'm not really qualified to make a comparison, but the way I look at the difference goes a little bit like this.

USA: Warning stickers make it hard to sue for damages, but they don't stop idiocy or ignorance from causing terrible accidents to happen. Given the apparent addiction to suing anything that moves, the policy seems to be to protect the manufacturer legally.

Europe: There are far fewer lawsuits here. A "class action lawsuit" regarding the power of lawnmower motors would be ridiculed. While easy to denounce as "nanny-state" etc, the general policy seems to be more orientated around protecting the end-users where possible.

I for one would rather something comes with safety features that someone has put some thought into. If they're a PITA, I'll remove them - and blame myself if it causes me a problem.

Much like Germany, we in Sweden have a mandatory chimney-sweep visit each year. We're in the middle of re-lining our chimney, and it's the local sweep who'll be approving it and signing off on it.

Fewer house-fires, and insurance doesn't refuse to pay up if a chimney fire does cause damage as they know it's approved and properly cleaned.
Laws rules and regulations... I'm happy with them, the system works.

I am glad you are happy with that Nick, it seems the sensible thing for you and your comrades. Enjoy, all the best...

 

[SensibleNick]

I am glad you are happy with that Nick, it seems the sensible thing for you and your comrades. Enjoy, all the best...

Thanks.
It works for us, and we're not over-run with lawyers... so we do enjoy it
erm... Comrade?

Oh I see... we must be communists because we have a different system? How quaint

 

[_RaT_]

Thanks.
It works for us, and we're not over-run with lawyers... so we do enjoy it
erm... Comrade?

Oh I see... we must be communists because we have a different system? How quaint

Sorry Nick, we (me and my friends)use that term here amongst ourselves as a term of friendship, did not mean to imply the "C" word. I am curious however, do you guys have open fireplaces or are these word burning stove type fireplaces that have their chimneys cleaned. When you said re-lined it makes me think of an open fireplace.

 

[Sweden-Art]

Oh I see... we must be communists because we have a different system? How quaint

Spatziba comrade Nick! How his your communist tractor going?

I think the main thing with EU regulations is pure protectionism and a trade weapon. Its much harder for a non EU manufactured item to get E-marked then an EU manufactured. And it seems to work quite good. EU is not for instance like US are, in huge debt to China. Importing all kind of junk from China with loaned money from.....China. Making US manufactures to close down, cant compete with this cheap items without protectionism or trade fees.

 

[SensibleNick]

Sorry Nick, we (me and my friends)use that term here amongst ourselves as a term of friendship, did not mean to imply the "C" word. I am curious however, do you guys have open fireplaces or are these word burning stove type fireplaces that have their chimneys cleaned. When you said re-lined it makes me think of an open fireplace.

Phew... If that's the way you meant it, then there's no offence taken at all: Having been on the receiving end of a post that claimed "all Europeans are stupid" I was assuming the worst: sorry!

One of the reasons our fireplace needed re-lining was because the open fireplace and chimney were original and un-changed from when this house was built in 1890. To give a clearer idea of just how old that is... the Irish immigrants got voting rights in the USA only 4 years earlier!!

The house has settled a good deal since then, and smoke could go pretty much anywhere it wanted. Earlier this year we demolished the fireplace and dropped a stainless steel liner down it - and I'm just in the process of bricking in a snout at the bottom to allow us to put in our cast-iron free-standing wood-burner in place. :thumbsup: Far more efficient, takes up less space and is way more attractive.

All chimneys get cleaned here - metal-lined or concrete-lined.
Many houses have open fires, but a stand-alone "kamin" (sounds like Cam-een) is far more common - even though they're rarely the primary source of heat.

Considering the age of many of the houses and buildings here - many of them being "Pre-America" - it makes a lot of sense to take the extra care and time to get the sweeping done, checked and signed off.

As my pellet-burning boiler in the cellar has a similar 125mm stainless lining, I have my own chimney-sweeping setup.

Spatziba comrade Nick! How his your communist tractor going?

I think the main thing with EU regulations is pure protectionism and a trade weapon. Its much harder for a non EU manufactured item to get E-marked then an EU manufactured. And it seems to work quite good. EU is not for instance like US are, in huge debt to China. Importing all kind of junk from China with loaned money from.....China. Making US manufactures to close down, cant compete with this cheap items without protectionism or trade fees.

hahahaha Skit-Bra tack!

We're in danger of heading the same way you know... we're setting up manufacturing places in China, but it won't be long before the cost of getting things to high quality hits the Chinese industrial machine and costs start to rise. It'll balance out in the end, but not before many businesses suffer in the cooperate battle to get everything cheaper.

Oh well.. back to the garden

 

[_RaT_]

"One of the reasons our fireplace needed re-lining was because the open fireplace and chimney were original and un-changed from when this house was built in 1890. To give a clearer idea of just how old that is... the Irish immigrants got voting rights in the USA only 4 years earlier!! "

What, what???? they let the Irish vote here! :laughing:

We have a Waterford wood stove that works incredibly well. It is our primary source of heat. I have access to all the oak wood I want and use about 2 cords a season. It is no doubt a chore to get it, split it, stack it and bring it in the house but there is simply nothing like having heat from it. When we warm the house with it versus our natural gas heater, the house is always warmer even if its not if you know what I mean. :confused2:

 

[Iowachild]

I prefer the "common sense" approach rather then the nanny state concept of the European. In Europe, sometimes the bureaucrats are a bit too intrusive in the lives of the citizens (not just in safety).
I guess it depends if you want to control your own life or let some one else do it for you.
This topic has the potential of getting too political, so I'll end my response now.

AMEN!

 

[SensibleNick]

AMEN!

Was that with reference to the "it can get too political so I'll shut up" bit? Because I utterly agree with it :thumbsup:

Incase it wasn't though, When it comes to intrusiveness and comparing Europe to the USA.. Which country is it where the government sneakily passed a bill that allows phonecalls and E-mail to be logged and the kids have to go through metal detectors on the way into school?

Stones, Glass house... you know the rules

 

[SensibleNick]

We have a Waterford wood stove that works incredibly well. It is our primary source of heat. I have access to all the oak wood I want and use about 2 cords a season. It is no doubt a chore to get it, split it, stack it and bring it in the house but there is simply nothing like having heat from it. When we warm the house with it versus our natural gas heater, the house is always warmer even if its not if you know what I mean. :confused2:

I've got a stack of 1886 newspapers here... and most adverts are for steam-ship travel to the New Land... utterly fascinating to read. One of the headlines is "Irish Get Voting Rights"... Wonderful stuff.

I'm rather jealous of your wood supply! The south of Sweden is fairly sparse when it comes to woodland: in the North it's massively forested, but the old ship-building habits saw to it that trees became endangered.

I'd love to heat the house with wood that I've cut and split, but the reality is that I simply don't have the time. Heating with wood pellets (Willow grown in rotation on the fields as a well-earning crop - harvested and shredded, and waste wood from the sawmills in the north) is a renewable, cheap and easy way... I'm new to it, but I kinda like it